11 Brigade - Minden

I am beginning to think that age and failing memory are playing tricks on me.

When I was first posted to Verden in 1969, 1 Div had 2 brigades under command, 7 and 11.

No problem with 7 at Soltau. They always were and still are 7 "Armoured" Brigade.

My question is to do with 11. At the time I arrived I am convinced that they were 11 "Mechanised" Brigade and later on became 11 "Armoured" Brigade. This is obviously to do with the ratio of armour to infantry in the make up of the Brigade.

However I can find no reference anywhere to 11 being Mech. Loads of refs to 11 "Infantry" Bde and 11 "Armoured" Bde.

Did I imagine this

Cheers Mike

mjm34 wrote:

I am beginning to think that age and failing memory are playing tricks on me.

When I was first posted to Verden in 1969, 1 Div had 2 brigades under command, 7 and 11.

No problem with 7 at Soltau. They always were and still are 7 "Armoured" Brigade.

My question is to do with 11. At the time I arrived I am convinced that they were 11 "Mechanised" Brigade and later on became 11 "Armoured" Brigade. This is obviously to do with the ratio of armour to infantry in the make up of the Brigade.

However I can find no reference anywhere to 11 being Mech. Loads of refs to 11 "Infantry" Bde and 11 "Armoured" Bde.

Did I imagine this

Cheers Mike

I left Verden-Aller Nov 69 you are correct seems the infantry brigades became armoured in 1970 the only mechanised brigade was 12 in Osnabrück then in 1977 to task forces 12 mechanised became 5 Field Force then 1981 back to armoured brigades 5 Field Force disbanded Jan 82 if I have it wrong please let me know
Regards
Steve
http://royalsignalsbaor.blogspot.com/ - needs updating early years!

Steve,aQuote from your blog

Quote :

7 Signal Regiment (Corps) – Maresfield Barracks Hereford
Corps Main and Step up with 7 squadrons the biggest regiment in the British Army

22 Signal Regiment – Churchill Barracks Lippstadt
From Nov 61 Corps Rear

I was at 7 Sigs from Jan 62.There were only 5 Sqaudrons then.

The reference to 22 being Corps rear from Nov 61 is inaccurate.Up untill i left at the end of 65 5 Sqdn. of 7 Sigs was corps rear

I can account for one of the 2 missing squadrons .It went to 22 Sigs as for the other?never heard of it

Hi Gordon
Need your input to get things correct as much is wrong out there will look deeper and get back to you
Regards
Steve
"History is only as good as those who wrote it down"

steve wrote:

I left Verden-Aller Nov 69 you are correct seems the infantry brigades became armoured in 1970 the only mechanised brigade was 12 in Osnabrück then in 1977 to task forces 12 mechanised became 5 Field Force then 1981 back to armoured brigades 5 Field Force disbanded Jan 82 if I have it wrong please let me know
Regards
Steve
http://royalsignalsbaor.blogspot.com/ - needs updating early years!

I'm not sure if you're saying I'm correct about 11 Bde or correct that my memory is failing.

Yes I knew about all the changes from Bde Groups to Bdes, from Inf to Armd etc. but I'm certainly not so sure that all the Inf Bdes became Armd in 1970. I know that 12 was "Mech" at some stage but I still have it in the back of my mind that so was 11 Bde.

Where did you get your info. If it was from either "The British Army in Germany (BAOR and After)" or "The Royal Corps of Signals - Unit Histories of the Corps (1920-2001)" I would take the info with a very large pinch of salt.

I have both books and both seem to be riddled with errors on info that I am sure about, so I tend not to take any of the other stuff as Gospel.

Cheers Mike

mjm34 wrote:

steve wrote:

I left Verden-Aller Nov 69 you are correct seems the infantry brigades became armoured in 1970 the only mechanised brigade was 12 in Osnabrück then in 1977 to task forces 12 mechanised became 5 Field Force then 1981 back to armoured brigades 5 Field Force disbanded Jan 82 if I have it wrong please let me know
Regards
Steve
http://royalsignalsbaor.blogspot.com/ - needs updating early years!

I'm not sure if you're saying I'm correct about 11 Bde or correct that my memory is failing.

Yes I knew about all the changes from Bde Groups to Bdes, from Inf to Armd etc. but I'm certainly not so sure that all the Inf Bdes became Armd in 1970. I know that 12 was "Mech" at some stage but I still have it in the back of my mind that so was 11 Bde.

Where did you get your info. If it was from either "The British Army in Germany (BAOR and After)" or "The Royal Corps of Signals - Unit Histories of the Corps (1920-2001)" I would take the info with a very large pinch of salt.

I have both books and both seem to be riddled with errors on info that I am sure about, so I tend not to take any of the other stuff as Gospel.

Cheers Mike

Hi Mike
Through the blog a lad got in touch who served with 7 Armd Bde HQ & Sig Sqn from 1970 to 1977 he made the correction from infantry and even sent a photo of the unit sign...the book you mentioned is a start but as you said riddled with errors hence the blog so those who served at the unit can make corrections direct to the blog on send an email
My BAOR research so far is done this way as the internet is riddled with repeated errors reading a journal or newspaper from the time my not be 100% but better than guess work and look forward to any input to get things better
Regards
Steve

I have been researching the timeline of RAOC units in BAOR from OFP's to Ordnance Companies and even peoples memories are conflicting sometimes, and the printed orbits are hard to come by.

Hi Mike
Have something on 1 Corps District Ordnance Company dated Sep 1945 if required send a PM with your email address
Regards
Steve

steve wrote:

Hi Mike
Through the blog a lad got in touch who served with 7 Armd Bde HQ & Sig Sqn from 1970 to 1977 he made the correction from infantry and even sent a photo of the unit sign...the book you mentioned is a start but as you said riddled with errors hence the blog so those who served at the unit can make corrections direct to the blog on send an email
My BAOR research so far is done this way as the internet is riddled with repeated errors reading a journal or newspaper from the time my not be 100% but better than guess work and look forward to any input to get things better
Regards
Steve

Hi again Steve
I don't think that 7 Bde was ever Inf, it was always Armd as far as I know, but that was not my original question.

I am more concerned with 11 Bde. Yes they were certainly Inf but I don't think they changed to Armd in 1970. I believe it was later. However that's all by the by.

My main concern is whether 11 Mech Bde ever existed. There must be someone out there who served with or under 11 Bde in the late '60s and/or early '70s who can give the definitive answer.

Cheers
Mike

Quote :

Where did you get your info. If it was from either "The British Army in Germany (BAOR and After)" or "The Royal Corps of Signals - Unit Histories of the Corps (1920-2001)" I would take the info with a very large pinch of salt.

Try a shovel....Particularly the Royal Corps of Signals - Unit Histories

Not sure i should be talking to you Mike,now that you have changed messes

mjm34 wrote:

steve wrote:

Hi Mike
Through the blog a lad got in touch who served with 7 Armd Bde HQ & Sig Sqn from 1970 to 1977 he made the correction from infantry and even sent a photo of the unit sign...the book you mentioned is a start but as you said riddled with errors hence the blog so those who served at the unit can make corrections direct to the blog on send an email
My BAOR research so far is done this way as the internet is riddled with repeated errors reading a journal or newspaper from the time my not be 100% but better than guess work and look forward to any input to get things better
Regards
Steve

Hi again Steve
I don't think that 7 Bde was ever Inf, it was always Armd as far as I know, but that was not my original question.

I am more concerned with 11 Bde. Yes they were certainly Inf but I don't think they changed to Armd in 1970. I believe it was later. However that's all by the by.

My main concern is whether 11 Mech Bde ever existed. There must be someone out there who served with or under 11 Bde in the late '60s and/or early '70s who can give the definitive answer.

Cheers
Mike

Mike
Sorry ERROR the lad was 11 Armd Bde HQ & Sig Sqn from 1970 to 1977 he corrected the blog and do know a lad who served in 11 Inf Bde HQ & Sig Sqn mid to late 60s so will check with him but remember doing SDS from Verden-Aller 67/68 and was 11 Inf Bde


All the best
Steve
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mjm34 wrote:

steve wrote:

Hi Mike
Through the blog a lad got in touch who served with 7 Armd Bde HQ & Sig Sqn from 1970 to 1977 he made the correction from infantry and even sent a photo of the unit sign...the book you mentioned is a start but as you said riddled with errors hence the blog so those who served at the unit can make corrections direct to the blog on send an email
My BAOR research so far is done this way as the internet is riddled with repeated errors reading a journal or newspaper from the time my not be 100% but better than guess work and look forward to any input to get things better
Regards
Steve

Hi again Steve
I don't think that 7 Bde was ever Inf, it was always Armd as far as I know, but that was not my original question.

I am more concerned with 11 Bde. Yes they were certainly Inf but I don't think they changed to Armd in 1970. I believe it was later. However that's all by the by.

My main concern is whether 11 Mech Bde ever existed. There must be someone out there who served with or under 11 Bde in the late '60s and/or early '70s who can give the definitive answer.

Cheers
Mike

Have the following from another book full of errors but believe to be correct and ties in with RE history for the time here goes...changes will be welcome!

1964 to 1970
1 Corps
1 Arty Bde
7 Arty Bde
HQ 1 Wing/HQ Army Aviation
11 Engr Group
Corps troops omitted

1 Division
7 Armd Bde
11 Inf Bde end 1970 11 Armd Bde

2 Division
6 Inf Bde to UK 1968
12 Inf Bde end 1970 12 Mech Bde

4 Division
4 Guards Bde end 1970 4 Armd Bde
20 Armd Bde

1971 to 1976
1 Corps
1 Arty Bde
7 Arty Bde
HQ 1 Wing AAC
Corps troops omitted

1 Division
7 Armd Bde
11 Armd Bde

2 Division
4 Armd Bde
12 Mech Bde

4 Division
6 Armd Bde from UK 1971
20 Armd Bde

Cheers
Steve

steve wrote:

Have the following from another book full of errors but believe to be correct and ties in with RE history for the time here goes...changes will be welcome!

1964 to 1970
1 Division
7 Armd Bde
11 Inf Bde end 1970 11 Armd Bde

1971 to 1976
1 Division
7 Armd Bde
11 Armd Bde

Cheers
Steve

Fair do's. Looks like I did imagine 11 Mech Bde then.

Mike

mjm, Steve and Others

Your queries and subsequent comments rattled my grey cells particularly as I spent a number of happy years in the mid 60s with 11 Infantry/Field Workshop in Westminster Barracks Minden leaving in late Summer 1969 for 4 Guards Brigade Munster in late Summer 1969.

The late 1960s/early 1970s was a turbulent time in BAOR with the start of the Chieftain (replacing Centurion) to Armoured Regiments and the introduction of FV430s to the Infantry Battalions programmes. Add on the beginnings of the OP BANNER commitments and life became hectic

As a result there were a number of organisational changes and many Brigades changed shape and title.

If my memory is correct in the mid 1960s the BAOR Brigades were based on a four major unit organisation with either 3 Armoured Regiments and one Infantry Battalion (Armoured Brigade) or Three Infantry Battalions and one Armoured Regiments (Infantry Brigade), each Brigade had a nominated Field Regiment RA in direct support.

With the completion of the FV430 issue programme the Brigades reorganised reorganised to a square ORBAT with two Armoured Regiments and two (mechanised) Infantry Battalions. All adopted the title Armoured Brigade. The Osnabruck Brigade retained the 1+3 Infantry Heavy ORBAT but adopted the title 12 Mechanised Brigade to reflect the fact that the Infantry Battalions were now FV430 based.

In the mid 1970s following a need to reduce numbers due to severe financial and recruiting problems the title Brigade was dropped and Task Force introduced. 1 Division had ALFA and BRAVO, 2 Division CHARLIE and DELTA, 4th Division ECHO and FOXTROT. The UK based Brigades similarly reorganised to form 5-8 Field Forces. The experiment was not a success and some 2/3 years the Field Army reverted to the earlier organisations/titles

To summarise
I agree that 11 Brgade was never titled Mechanised

Steve that infamous book strikes again!!

1. 4 Guards Brigade switched from 4 Division to 2 Division in late 1970.
2. They were subseqently replaced in 4 Division by 6 Armoured Brigade who moved back to BAOR from the UK (Kirton in Lindsay area) to occupy some of the former Canadian Barracks in the Soest area.
3. I think the title 4 Guards Brigade lasted till the mid 70s. Certainly when I left Munster in early Summer 1972 all the key appointments in the Brigade HQ were held by members of the Household Division

Cheers JPW. Strange how one can labour under a false illusion for 40 years

I go along with what you say above, yes I remember 4 "Guards" Bde in Münster certainly up until I left 1 Div in 1973. I think they probably reformed as Armd after the failed Task Farce experiment, and changed formation sign from the Guards "all seeing eye" to the black desert rat.

The only thing I might query is where you say "The UK based Brigades similarly reorganised to form 5-8 Field Forces". From my recollection 5 Field Force was formed from 12 Mech Bde at Osnabrück. (but then you've shown above that all my recollections are not necessarily accurate )

Cheers Mike

Hi JPW, Mike and all

Have books on BOAR, Royal Signals and Royal Engineers history with many errors that are now repeated on the www but believe the Royal Engineers the best regarding BAOR formations they refer to 4 Guards Armd Bde from late 1970 and the command was 4 Div not 2 Div this happened when Task Farces (thanks Mike) went back to brigades in 1981 and 4 Armd Bde reformed as part of 2 Div

26 Engr Regt reformed Apr 69 at Paderborn supporting 4 Gds Bde of 4 Div and this continued at Iserlohn until the change to 3 Armd Div Engr Regt and Task Farces
Regards
Steve

Mike, Steve

Thank you

Mike
If 12 Mech Brigade became 5 Field Force (and with hindsight I think you are correct) Who formed Task Force DELTA?

Steve

4 Guards Brigade definitely switched to 2 Div command in 1970. I was EME of one of the Guards Battalions at the time. My Annual Confidential Report chain changed from CREME 4 Div in Herford to CREME 2 Div in Lubbecke

Thanks JPW you cannot argue with that but Iserlohn was a 4 Div patch so 26 Engr Regt must have switched to support 6 Armd Bde the armoured units were in the Iserlohn area from Sep 70 so now all makes sense the HQ moved from UK to San Sebastian Barracks near Soest and HQ 3 Armd Div moved in tol Sep 77 and who formed Task Farce Delta…picked up somewhere that 204 (4 Gds Armd Bde) Sig Sqn formed the signal support for both C+D not 212 (12 Mech Bde) Sig Sqn as reported in one book in another the squadron became 5 Fd Force HQ & Sig Sqn...but I was not there!
Cheers
Steve

I can confirm that 11 Armd Bde was indeed called that in 1971 and was at Kingsley barracks Minden because I was posted there in the RCT, still looking for anyone that was there in the RCT at the same time

Hmm, I should know all this seeing as I was at 1 Corps when it was all happening, but it's lost in the mists of time I'm afraid.

johnA wrote:

I can confirm that 11 Armd Bde was indeed called that in 1971 and was at Kingsley barracks Minden because I was posted there in the RCT, still looking for anyone that was there in the RCT at the same time

Anyone around then or was it just me

johnA wrote:

johnA wrote:

I can confirm that 11 Armd Bde was indeed called that in 1971 and was at Kingsley barracks Minden because I was posted there in the RCT, still looking for anyone that was there in the RCT at the same time

Anyone around then or was it just me

I was there 74,75 with HQ REME, great posting, loved it! Ian.

Right Gents, I was posted to 11 Inf Bde HQ & Sig Sqn in August 1970 some two weeks before my 18th birthday. Landed at Hannover airport RTO put me on a train to Minden and that was it. At Minden Bahnhof I did'nt have a clue could'nt speak German I was lost. I managed to share a lift to the Red Shields (Macs) Rhodesia Barracks next to the Globe Cinema. I was still lost seen a couple of RMPs asked them how do I get to the unit I was posted to. They took me to Kingsley Barracks in the back of their landrover. Now 11Inf Bde became 11 Armd the following month September 1970. I spent 5 years in this unit in Bravo Troop loads of name I can recall, but one of those names who served along side me was a Corporal Tommy Oman (Radio Relay Op) he was in charge of a white dog called Hobo (Troop Mascot).
First night in Naafi bar sat at a table near the double doors that faced onto the sports field I sat on a chair and was told don't sit there thats Hobo's place. I had'nt seen or heard of this Hobo at this stage and thought of this Hobo been a serving soldier.
My trade Cable Jointer Lineman which was downgraded to Combat Lineman about 1972. During my time in Kingsley Barracks I too did SDS from the Comcen the same building where the RMP office was. I did enjoy my time in Minden both good and bad times.
Prior to the unit been called 11 Inf Bde HQ & Sig Sqn previous name I belive was 211 Signal Squadron and in the Naafi bar in the early 70s on a night with a belly full of beer the older lads would sing about 211 been a happy Squadron
In 1977 the unit was again renamed this time to Task Force Golf (TFG) by which time I was posted to Task Force Charlie (TFC) after serving two years with 244 Sig Sqn at RAF Benson and RAF Brize Norton.
The years roll on and sadly those memories are just that...




nnnn

Ian wrote:

johnA wrote:

johnA wrote:

I can confirm that 11 Armd Bde was indeed called that in 1971 and was at Kingsley barracks Minden because I was posted there in the RCT, still looking for anyone that was there in the RCT at the same time

Anyone around then or was it just me

I was there 74,75 with HQ REME, great posting, loved it! Ian.

Hello Ian,
I recall a Cpl Smellie from those stores in the LAD a coloured gent .
A story I can tell one weekend went to the Schuntzenfest by the river Weser downtown Minden.
I won a spear on one of those stalls. Boys been boys we threw that spear about and the metal part of that spear broke.
So one dinner time I took this spear to the LAD hoping it could be welded and repaired. The only person available was ...
you guessed it this Cpl Smellie. My embarrasement must shown having to tell him why I was in the LAD. Good chap with a good sense of humor we laughed... and today I still do when I think about that one incident.....

Ian wrote:

I was there 74,75 with HQ REME, great posting, loved it! Ian.

Ian I was at Kingsley from late 1970 till I got a local demob and got a job and a sweet girlfriend in Minden lived in the flats above Bill's beer keller (next to the Globe)
I was in the RAC and drove the HQ's DAA&QMG (district assistant attorney and quater master general) he was a right bar-steward.
Around that time we had a lad that was messing with one of the married guys kids when babysitting, he did not touch the ground went straight to Colchester and that was the last we heard of him thank god