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 Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar

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manbargos
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PostSubject: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   28/6/2011, 17:32

On looking at the information given about Manchester Barracks, Goslar, it states that the barracks were handed over to the German Air Force in 1956. In fact, the 1st Bn. the Bedfs & Herts Regt. were stationed there from 1956 to the summer of 1958, when they amalgamated with the Essex Regt. and moved to Dortmund.
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   28/6/2011, 17:56

manbargos

thanks for that, as the saying goes "every little helps"

It is comments like yours based on first hand knowledge help the editors of this site build up an accurate picture of the complex history of BAOR
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   28/6/2011, 18:26

Hi manbargos,

Notice you are in in Hertford. Lived there from '51 to '64 (Horns Mill / Sele Farm) before joining the army! cheers
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Bill 1
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   12/7/2011, 18:06

I stand corrected about my entry in the Location section on the barracks closing in 1956, as I cannot argue with someone who was there later than that!

What I had found when writing the entry was the 'badge' issued in 2006 celebrating 50 years of occupation by the GAF. Perhaps both UK troops and the GAF were there at the same time. They were extensive barracks!


http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/15/53/80/52/images11.jpg
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   13/7/2011, 19:55

Have found a web link
http://www.relikte.com/goslar/index.htm
Despite living in Germany my German reading is not that good however perhaps others can help further...what I can work out
1946 US army left and British Royal Engineers moved in and named Manchester Barracks
1947 German Civil Labour Organisation (GCLO) then from January 1948 HQ 472 Norwegian Infantry Brigade then as per the BAOR locations page until September 1958 then 1 (BR) Corps exchanged barracks with the Bundeswehr in Münster and Wuppertal and the German Airforce moved in...hope this helps
Regards
Steve
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Shelldrake
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   14/7/2011, 07:54

Steve, if you download Google Chrome as your Browser it will automatically give you a translation service from any language (except Scottish) into English. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   14/7/2011, 08:29

What`s this????Google practising race discrimination??
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Shelldrake
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   14/7/2011, 10:16

I've already had a word Gordon, they told me, "Awa an' bile yer heid". Charming. Rolling Eyes
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brum
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   14/7/2011, 10:28


("Subtitles on Teletext" . . .). scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   14/7/2011, 10:31

But not on Google! Shocked
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   14/7/2011, 11:09

Shelldrake wrote:
Steve, if you download Google Chrome as your Browser it will automatically give you a translation service from any language (except Scottish) into English. Smile

Already tried use Google Chrome on laptop this web page it just does not work and cannot paste the text either can only print off...
Cheers
Steve
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ciphers
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   14/7/2011, 17:43

This is a condensed version of the whole.
When I copy and paste to translation it tells me only 500 characters at a time but it does give the whole condensed.
I use the site below ..

Len (Ciphers)

http://translation2.paralink.com/


The air base Goslar

Till 1945:
The prehistory of the Goslarer airfield began already in 1925. On incentive of the City Council of the town negotiations were taken up to buy a surface on the Grauhöfer field to furnish there an airport. The arrangement should bring a connection with the growing civil German aerial traffic network to the place.
The area by a size of 600 x 600 ms lay to the north of the town and belonged to the cloister chamber gray court. The sales negotiations hit with the cloister chamber on some opposition. In the end, the arrangement on a lease came about only several months later.
Already in October, 1926 there were on the surface the first aircraft movements. Within the scope of the " Medium German round flight " machines landed in Goslar. In the spring of the subsequent year the earthworks began to get ready the surface to the full airfield. In the southwest edge of the place, turned thus of the town, an administration building which accommodated flight management and dispatch was established.
On the 16th June, 1927 the first airplanes on the new airfield landed. The official opening of the arrangement followed on the 19th June. The place was approached in the future more often by traffic airman school Braunschweig-Broitzem. For the airlines Berlin-Amsterdam and Berlin-Paris which crossed the airspace over Goslar the local arrangement has been determined as an emergency landing field. Nevertheless, the number of the aircraft movements stayed behind clearly behind the original expectations of the town. In 1932 the first hangar was established in the south edge of the area. After the assumption of power of the National Socialists in 1933 began, at first still secretly, the construction a new German air force. One after outside there civil appearing camouflage organization was the " German airline AG and commercial AG Berlin " (DELHAG). This closed with the town of Goslar a contract to the extension of the airfield. The financing took over the DELHAG, as a countermove was put away for her a free right of use.
After in 1935 the existence of a German air force has been announced, the veiling could be cancelled. In May of the year began in the Grauhöfer wood, to the north of the airfield, the construction work to the establishment of an air base. At the same time the field has clearly been increased. Now it applied more than 3,500 x 2,400 ms. According to the rising need, the other lengthening of the start road occurred in June, 1938 about 250 ms in the direction of east. Up to the end of the use of the airfield there remained at the flight company on grass scar, one had fastened merely the hall approaches.
On the north side of the airfield five parking halls and a flight shipyard as well as the flight management were built up. Behind it an area with several lodging block joined in the direction of north. In addition there came different factories and economic buildings. To the east of it a rest area originated in the officer's house and a casino her place found. Also the main guard of the air base was established there. All together 95 single buildings have originated in the short time till 1937. At the same time one had torn off the constructions of the civil airfield in the south.
By own water supply, stream production and a heating work the arrangement was widely self-sufficient. Remarkably the place received no connection with the railway system, although in low distance on three sides of the air base railroad lines went. Indeed, the binding was planned, nevertheless, has not been realized. For the Heranführung of cars the complicated procedure by Culemeyer-street scooters had to be applied.
The civil use of the airfield also ended with the construction of the air base. The new-created military arrangement received the camouflage name "native country".
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Bill 1
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PostSubject: Manchester barracks   14/7/2011, 20:12

In the 'What's New' section, someone is getting their 'Manchester Barracks' mixed up.

I think the change referred to is to the Wuppertal barracks, not the Goslar barracks.
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   15/7/2011, 06:53

Hi Bill
My mistake now sorted
Cheers
Steve
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   15/7/2011, 07:02

This is a condensed version of the whole.
When I copy and paste to translation it tells me only 500 characters at a time but it does give the whole condensed.
I use the site below ..

Len (Ciphers)

Hi Len
Have been able to translate the full web page here but read only
http://www.freetranslation.com/
Regards
Steve

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Hardrations
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   17/7/2011, 05:23

Are we talking of Goslar in the Hartz Mountains. I know of two barracks in town. One was fairly new and used for the Border Police until the wall came down, now used as a Youth Center. Then the other, possibly from Kaiser days called Rommel Barracks (Kaserne) no longer in use but Rommel apparently served there as a battalion commander pre WW 2, so I was told by a German friend who lives close by. Any British use of that particular barracks. I have pictures of it some where.
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   17/7/2011, 05:36



Adolf Hitler welcomed by a honor guard at Goslar, Germany, 30 Sep 1934; note Captain Erwin Rommel in background
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   22/7/2011, 20:31

Quote
1 "Thats another fine mess you have got me in" (Laurel and Hardy)
2 "Military History is a mystery" (Steve)

Was interested in manbargos initial posting but Steve's subsequent link and comments increased my curiosity (Goslar is not of primary concern to me but as I will outline the actual situation there overlaps into my speciality of the northern half of BAOR)

By way of background and introduction, although the Hannover/Brunswick/Goslar area was part of the British Zone of Occupation the area was captured by units of the US 9th Army in early April 1945 in their drive east from the Ruhr towards Magdeburg and the River Elbe. In June 1945, a few weeks after the German Surrender, units of the British 5th Division took over responsibilty from the Americans who departed to their Occupation Zone in Southern Germany. Also the Goslar Fliegerhorst Kaserne was a very large barracks the size of Hobart Barracks Detmold and therefore capable of accomodating more than one major British Army unit

Like Steve my written German is limited but I did pick up some key phrases from his link. These are
Lazarett- Military Hospital
Kurierflugzeug Light Aircraft (used for liasion or reconnaisance purposes)
Pionier, Instandsetzung einheiten Engineer (RE) Repair (REME) units

Rereading Steve's link I interpret this to mean the following (and assuming a British presence was first established in Goslar in June 45 not 46)

1. a British Military Hospital was located in the accommodation blocks of the airfield camp
2. Also located on the airfield were both Sapper and REME units
3 Finally Light aircraft used the airfield regularly not withstanding the heavy damage caused by the Americam air raids of 1944

I dispute the following statements
1.The Americans did not leave the Goslar area till June 1946 (for reasons see my introduction)
2. The Sappers named a Barracks Manchester. I believe this to be most unlikely. They would have named it either after one of their major Training Bases (eg Chatham/Cove/Upnor/Longmoor)or a Sapper personality eg General Gordon
3. Details of the Norwegian deployment in Goslar (I have a copy of the definitive History of the Norwegian Brigade in Germany) Elements of the Brigade were in Goslar but only from December 1947 till October 1948 and never the main Brigade Headquarters which was initially in Oerlinghausen, subsequently Brunswick, before moving north to Schleswig Holstein in early Autumn 1948.

From my own and Steve's researches we have established that
1. In addition to the Fliegerhorst Kaserne there were atleast another four Wehrmacht (Army) Barracks in Goslar. The first, Dom Kaserne, first built in 1860, was probably the largest, the others may have been the equivalent of UK TA Drill Halls
2. The British Army was using atleast three Barracks in 1947 named Manchester, Hastings and Seaforth (the Norwegians formally applied to rename them using Norwegian themes). Manchester was undoubtedly part of the airfield complex, the exact location of the other two has yet to be identified but one was probably the former Dom Kaserne.
3 Archive material held in the Army Air Corps Museum in Middle Wallop shows that 662 (AOP) Squadron RAF weas operating from Goslar from early June to early July 1945 when they were replaced by 657 (AOP) Squadron RAF who remained in Goslar till November 1945. Both Squadrons were equipted with Auster Light Aircraft and the majority of pilots were Army volunteers (the forerunners of the modern Army Air Corps)
4. From a discussion topic on the Manchester Regiment website forum I established that the 1st Battalion of the Regiment ended the war in the Hamburg area as part of 53 (Welsh) Division and then moved briefly to Essen in Summer 1945. In November 1945 they were transferred to 30 Corps/5 Division and moved to Seesen. In Summer 1946 they moved again this time to Goslar and clearly renamed their new home Manchester where they were to remain till December 1947 when they returned to the UK
5. The Norwegians. I am still researching the details of the exact deployment of the Norwegian Brigade for publication on this site in due course. However I believe it was the Norwegian 19481, not 19472 Contingent who first moved to Goslar
My sources show
a. The Norwegian 2nd Infantry Battalion were in Goslar from January 1948 till September 1948 (as replacements for the Manchesters?)
b. The Staff, Signals and Military Police Companies were also in Goslar for the same time (possibly based in the former Dom Kaserne, British name as yet unknown)
c The Workshop company was in Goslar from Decemder 1947 till October 1948(possibly based on the airfield)

I have said enough but hopefully this clarifies some of the conflicting evidence which has been published in earlier years which is proving to be a continual source of both frustration and enjoyment to Steve and myself (and others) as in accordance with the aspirations of Philip Graham the founder of this site we try to create an accurate framework of the history of the early days of BAOR. Back north to the relative simplicity of Schleswig Holstein or for light relief the Canadians in Friesland.

Others including Steve may find out which British Infantry Battalions were in Goslar prior to the Manchesters (there is a hint that 2nd Cameronians could have been briefly based there but no mention to date of the Seaforth Highlanders or the Royal Sussex)

An after thought, Was amused to note on Steve's link that it contains a direct link to this site (our fame is obviously spreading)


Last edited by JPW on 23/7/2011, 22:08; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   23/7/2011, 09:54

JPW and all

Great stuff...have on record
Mar 46 – 2nd Battalion Cameronians from 15th (Scottish) Infantry Division – Goslar to UK Jul 46 believe this unit was formally 5th Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders

There is plenty to be done with the detail collected and it will be a while before getting round to each locations page...my proposal is start again post May 45 with 21st Army Group the doing each Corps District/Division/Brigade and their units in turn as there are so many amendments to be done to the "History of BAOR 1945 to 1949" thanks to your research then when completed next task is the locations pages

What has come to light that Hamburg District when formed was administration on formation and only went operational on the disbandment of the last Corps District number 1...then 2/5/7 Div had a District HQ each along with Hamburg and later Hannover

Regards
Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   23/7/2011, 20:40

Steve
Your remark regarding the origins of 2nd Bn Cameronians will have Gordon and his fellow Scots heading for Hadrians Wall demanding your head on a plate or worse

You are confusing two proud Scottish Regiments with very distinct traditions

The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) to give them their full title had its origins in the Lowland Covenanters who were in dispute with the Scottish Established Church in the 18th Century. Recruiting in Lanarkshire and nearby counties including Glasgow the Regiment was fiercely proud of its Protestant tradition. Indeed prior to any formal Regimental Church Service sentries were posted outside the Kirk to give warning of the approach of any troublemakers.

The Queens Own Cameron Highlanders represented a totally different tradition being recruited from the Highlands , in particular Inverness Shire and the Western Isles. (we discussed this sometime ago in connection with the naming of Shiel Barracks Verden)

To suggest there was a connection between the two Regiments would invite mutiny, indeed the Cameronians voluntarily disbanded in 1959 rather than amalgamate with any other Regiment. To go back to the 2nd Battalion, restudying the notes I sent you on the deployment of 8 Corps in May 1945, this shows they were in the Lubeck area as part of 13 Infantry Brigade, 5 Division and immediate prior to the move to the Wismar area to relieve 6 Airborne Division. The subsequent move to Goslar is therefore a logical progression for the same Battalion, though we have yet to identify where they were in the period July 1945- March 1946


Last edited by JPW on 23/7/2011, 22:02; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   23/7/2011, 21:16


Jeeezus ! Shocked

What a sectarian, bigoted tangle.

No wonder the "English" were able to force the Act of Union on the Scots !
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PostSubject: Re: Bedfs & Herts at Manchester Barracks, Goslar   23/7/2011, 21:47

Hardrations wrote:


Adolf Hitler welcomed by a honor guard at Goslar, Germany, 30 Sep 1934; note Captain Erwin Rommel in background

Look at that guard of honour, all the same height and build, smart as a button stick, you can see how all that bullshit would appeal to a generation with an inferiority complex. But look at the inspecting officers, (with all due respect to the soldier von Rommel), who's that little dragarse with the the oversized helmet (and that's not meant to be phallic !), and wearing gum boots, for example ?

How could such a collection of oddballs and syphyllitics exercise such a lethal influence over such a culturally sophisticated country ?

Beats the shit out of me, Sarn't Major !
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