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PostSubject: AUSCHWITZ   18/9/2011, 05:20

In 2003 I did a coach tour of Eastern Europe, amongst other places were were in the Krakow, Poland area, so we visited the infamous concentration camps, Auschwitz 1 and 2, Very moving and memorable. Anybody else been there ?

I was told ALL German high school kids have to visit a concentration camp as part of their schooling, so as they will remember what their forefathers did.

No doubt the Ruskis liberated Auschwitz. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   18/9/2011, 07:27

I`d rather forget about those camps,but alas it is not possible.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   18/9/2011, 08:07

Gordon. wrote:
I`d rather forget about those camps,but alas it is not possible.


No one should be allowed to forget and we should do the same with our school kids so they don't end up denying it happened like some of the idiots you see belonging to right wing groups.

Yes the Russians did liberate it.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   18/9/2011, 10:59

Teabag wrote:
Gordon. wrote:
I`d rather forget about those camps,but alas it is not possible.


No one should be allowed to forget and we should do the same with our school kids so they don't end up denying it happened like some of the idiots you see belonging to right wing groups.

Yes the Russians did liberate it.

EXACTLY mate, LEST WE FORGET
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   21/9/2011, 18:42

We should never ever ever EVER forget. Unfortunately, we do -- constantly -- and similar genocides continue....Rwanda, Serbia, the former Yugoslavia, Kurdistan, etc. Camps too.

I never visited Auschwitz. We were going to but my mother flat out refused to agree to going. Not that she was anti-Semitic, far from it actually, but it was just too horrible a place and she couldn't deal with the idea of actually being there. I can't say I wished we had gone, sounds a bit too superficial, like it was some 'must see' tourist attraction, but I think it would have made an enormous impression, especially on a 17-year old youth such as I was at the time.

I was, of course, aware of Shoah (Holocaust) and became more aware of it as the years went by. I still don't know if I would want to visit one of the camps, though. There's a sense of it's my duty to do so if given the opportunity, but other than that....I'd really rather not. I'd like to go Yad Vashem, however but I doubt I will ever make it to Tel Aviv!
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   24/9/2011, 05:32

hi there,
i was stationed in hohne,so we visited bergan belsen, another place never to be forgotten in my memory
as for german kids having to visit........not true.
atb
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   24/9/2011, 07:21

Quote :
No one should be allowed to forget and we should do the same with our school kids so they don't end up denying it happened like some of the idiots you see belonging to right wing groups.

Read in our local rag to day.,that a couple of schools had just returned from visiting AUSCHWITZ.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   24/9/2011, 11:55

pinky wrote:
hi there,
i was stationed in hohne,so we visited bergan belsen, another place never to be forgotten in my memory
as for german kids having to visit........not true.
atb
pinky

I visited Belsen quite a lot, I used to be collared to show visitors around the place. (The Commonwealth War Cemetery at Becklingen too).

What used to infuriate people was the sight of jolly German families, sitting around, on the grass, picnicking.

I often wonder if they realised where they were.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   24/9/2011, 12:22

We'll never know........funny lot ........the germans !!
did they bomb your 'chippy' lol.
atb
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   24/9/2011, 18:50

pinky wrote:
We'll never know........funny lot ........the germans !!
did they bomb your 'chippy' lol.
atb
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They bombed me dads house. He wasn't half annoyed!
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   25/9/2011, 05:21

I can imagine........plus them fokkers were real f--kers........lol
atb
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   27/9/2011, 10:31

Walking inside the Gas Chambers at Auschwitz was really moving. To think, thousands died in there. And to see the rooms with hair, artificial legs, arms, glasses, teeth, suitcases all taken off the Jews, very disturbing.

Will be in my memory for ever.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   27/9/2011, 12:20

Brum

Worse still for me was when I visited the Commonwealth War Cemetry on the banks of the Kwai River in Thailand was the antics of Japanese teenagers pulling faces and photographing themselves dancing round the Cross of Sacrifice and individual British, Australian and Dutch graves when I visited about 15 years ago
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   27/9/2011, 13:03

hi there,
Japs are ignorant. Not met a good one ever.
atb
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   27/9/2011, 18:21

Worse still for me was when I visited the Commonwealth War Cemetry on the banks of the Kwai River in Thailand was the antics of Japanese teenagers pulling faces and photographing themselves dancing round the Cross of Sacrifice and individual British, Australian and Dutch graves when I visited about 15 years ago[/quote]

God, that's depressing.

I thought the little buggers were big on "respect". Maybe that's just to their own people. monkey
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   27/9/2011, 20:07

brum wrote:
Worse still for me was when I visited the Commonwealth War Cemetry on the banks of the Kwai River in Thailand was the antics of Japanese teenagers pulling faces and photographing themselves dancing round the Cross of Sacrifice and individual British, Australian and Dutch graves when I visited about 15 years ago

God, that's depressing.

I thought the little buggers were big on "respect". Maybe that's just to their own people. monkey [/quote]

Perhaps it is because unlike the Germans, the Japs have rewritten history and gloss over the atrocities their troops committed. A lot of people don't know or conveniently forget that they murdered plenty of Asian ciivilians as well as allied POW's. I blame the Yanks and especially Emperor MacArthur for not forcing them to acknowledge their guilt as the Germans were. I understand their history books are very sparse in regards to the war. Can't stand the buggers myself and that is only through reading about their evil deeds. We should have insisted that their emperor stood trial and put up against a wall and shot.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   27/9/2011, 20:14

i love the japs.i would give them a wave every week.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   28/9/2011, 00:18

Having spent some time there in the 50's I found the Japanese to be very polite and despite the language barrier they seemed eager to communicate and be friendly. I am not a Jap lover by any means, my uncle was one of the Chindits and was killed in March 1945 just outside Rangoon and I went there with a preconceived hatred for the Japanese, but it is similar to our acceptance of the Germans, many of our contributors accept them without a qualm, yet they were if not as bad as the Japs, possibly worse. I also went to Germany in 1952 with preconceive hatred of the Germans, having lost another uncle in March 1943 on HMS Harvester, torpedoed on convoy duty. But time heals many wounds and I made friends from former enemies.
I suspect the Japanese kids who were being arseholes at the Kachanaburi War Cemetery are the same type of yobs we now see all over the world, with no respect for anyone or anything.
The world has unfortunately changed, back in the 50's even though we had just gone through a tremendous social upheaval with the World War, the world was a gentler place and people were not as antagonistic as nowadays.
When I visited Kanchanaburi I also had to leave, it was the first War Cemetery I had ever been in and walking round the graves reading headstones I was stunned to realize that the majority of the men buried there were not killed in action, but died from ill treatment and starvation. Many of those camp guards were Korean conscripted by the Japs.

Len (Ciphers)
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   28/9/2011, 04:37

Interesting...........I've seen the JAPS at Pearl Harbor and believe me there's lots of them visiting.
Our tour guide explained that most of them are not aware of the purpose of the visit to P.H. its just part of the holiday,so its all included !!
Hence due to ignorance (maybe) they don't seem too respectfull there either,one more thing our guide said that some that know about P.H. seem to gloat !!
Not nice..........
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   28/9/2011, 04:51

Saw Bergen Belsen a few times. What got my attention was all the disused rail heads between the Bergen and Belsen. Just imagining all the concentration inmates coming of the trains and being forced marched to the camp. I spoke to some elderly residents, they did not see a thing or know anything about the camp. I don't mind if people think I'm stupid, but then to try to prove it kind of set me off a bit. I liked Germany, I have many German friends, my father in law was WW 2 Veteran of the German army, I enjoy returning to Germany on holidays, but still to meet people who actually expected me to believe that hog wash. Incidentally the first Concentration Inmate survivor I meet, was a German, a member of the S.D.P.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   28/9/2011, 09:36

Hi there,
I just remembered when I was stationed in Hohne in the early 80's living in MB7 there was an organised march from the railways sidings to the concentration camp.
I believe it may of been survivors and families and relatives and others to commemorate the liberation...........anyhow it was an extremely moving sight.
We were told if we wanted to look, to peep through curtains carefully and not to be seen.
atb
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   28/9/2011, 16:21

pinky wrote:
Hi there,
I just remembered when I was stationed in Hohne in the early 80's living in MB7 there was an organised march from the railways sidings to the concentration camp.
I believe it may of been survivors and families and relatives and others to commemorate the liberation...........anyhow it was an extremely moving sight.
We were told if we wanted to look, to peep through curtains carefully and not to be seen.
atb
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this is just my oppinion and will retire with tin hat on to await incoming.

the trouble with this country now is the willingness of people to bend over backwards to get shafted.since the germans and thier allies could not win the war in order to dominate the world and create "germania".they came up with the idea of the european union,low and behold nearly all the countries invaded by hitler are allowed to join [ all using the same currencies ] .i like many others could rant all day,[but your probably bored allready] the next time any of you visit any war cemetry any where in the world please do 2 things,1,if any ignorant race of people are missbehaving,find thier interprator and tell them how you feel,2,take any part of that cemetry,any row walk along and work out the average age of the service man burried there [you will be supprised] all those young lives seem wasted if all we do is nothing but give into europe.
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   28/9/2011, 19:02

I agree with dandc about approaching a group's interpreter/guide and registering a complaint about disrespectful behaviour.

Not to excuse the behaviour, believing as I do that even if one has not been exposed to the history, after a certain age one should be able to figure it out that the site is not a site to cavort at but to be respectful, but if a generation of people have not learned what that site is or what meaning it holds or anything about their nation's role in a particular war etc. or have been fed purposeful misinformation, then it follows they will have no understanding or appreciation or insight.

of course, to my way of thinking, if one is in a cemetery, regardless of whether or not one has grown up believing in the Divine Right of the Emperor and how the evil West manipulated circumstances to bring dishonour to their nation or whatever it is they believe, it is still a cemetery filled with the remains of young men who fought and died for what they believed in, or because it was demanded of them, and apart from anything else (world politics, belief systems, etc) one should pay honour to those young men and respect their final resting place.

If I was to enter a Shinto shrine or go to the Ground Zero memorial at Hiroshima, no matter what my views about Shintoism (and during the war Shintoism was used very much as a propaganda tool) or the use of the atomic bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, pro or con, I would be respectful. To do so does not support the cult of the Emperor or Japanese Imperialism or any of the poppycock, it acknowledges the lives of those lost amidst something greater than themselves....either a greater good or a greater evil. The respect is to them, not to the system.

Likewise, whatever my views on Islamism (as opposed to simply Islam) and all the evil unleashed on the world in the name of Jihad and Islamism, I would show respect upon entering a mosque, removing my shoes as required, being sure to not give insult, not walk in front of those praying etc. If one felt unable to do that because of ones views, then don't enter a mosque!

It's the same with entering a cathedral or country church....I have strong views about "The Church" believe me (don't even get me started!!) and that's one thing. I am still fully capable of entering a cathedral or a church or a chapel or what-have-you and being respectful of others present and not start in on how corrupt The Church is or how the cathedral was built using essentially slave labour or what-have-you. It is not the time nor the place for such diatribes. Over coffee afterward? sure, if it comes up...maybe. Depends on circumstances, doesn't it?

As someone else mentioned, we seem to have a whole generation or two who have no concept of respect or manners or how to conduct themselves in public. Not to absolve them, because at some point I think they should be able to come to an understanding themselves on what is appropriate but if they have never been supplied with the tools to do so, then they can't.

Who's to blame for that? Them? To a point, perhaps, yes as the information is available, it's out there. Their parents? Yes, but if the parents grew up in an environment of lies and cover-ups and propaganda detailing the evils of The Other (in this case, the West i.e. non-Japanese), of course they will have absorbed that and since every person on the face of the earth is most comfortable in their own and with their own and is prone to project all that is good and right to them and theirs and all that is suspect onto The Other, I think it is fairly easy to understand how such conflicts between races/nations/groups/cultures occurs.

Which is not, I hasten to add, in any way meant to excuse the behaviour or the attitude. Yes, absolutely it must be challenged. Like dandc said, approach the group's guide/interpreter and tell them such behaviour is seen as disrespectful and shameful and the individuals doing it should, if no other reason but it is upsetting others, desist. If that fails, seek out someone in authority at the site and have the offenders evicted! Embarrass the living hell out of them. Japanese are big on 'saving face' but if they cannot seem to grasp it cuts both ways and they end up 'losing face'...tough noogies!!

If I am to be expected to respect their traditions/culture/cultural sites, then they damn well better respect ours. Seems pretty basic to me. Mutual respect.

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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   29/9/2011, 04:11

hi there,
good discussion.
Another thing that bugs me is the moderates rarely voice disgust at the radicals of there religon,faith or beliefs !! I have never seen or read in Alberta, Canada- the Muslim council attempt to stop any radicals,gang members or the likes from killing,breaking the law publicly.If the moderates can't stop there own,we have no chance.
Just my observation.
atb
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PostSubject: Re: AUSCHWITZ   6/10/2011, 10:24


Having mentioned the Commonwealth cemetery at Becklingen earlier I was remembering a time when a group of us went there for a wander around.

One of our party wondered why some RAF headstones were grouped together and asked a man in black battledress who was working nearby. He turned out to be an employee of the people that maintain war cemeteries and explained that while it was known who was in an aircraft when it came down it was not always possible to identify individuals so they were buried in a mass grave.

Jock (it turned out he was Scottish!) then went on to tell us that the first man to cross the Rhine was buried there as was the youngest VC of the war. The man was a mine of information.

The saddest thing about Becklingen is that most of the people buried there died in the last six months of the war.
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