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 Return to "Royal" prefixes

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ritter
Maj
Maj
ritter

Number of posts : 265
Age : 90
Localisation : North Huron Township, ON,Canada
Cap Badge : Royal Canadian Artillery
Places Served : CFB Valcartier, CFB Borden, AFVR Meaford, Ipperwash, CAN; Hannover, Putlos; 21 Fd Regt RCA(M)
Registration date : 2011-07-09

Return to "Royal" prefixes Empty
PostSubject: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime23/8/2012, 23:09

BAOR(27CIB)
The winds of change continue to blow for the Canadian military. In 2011, PM Stephen Harper caused a ruckus among Canadian nationalists particularly in Quebec with his announcement to return the "Royal" prefix in the Canadian Navy and Air force . The revisionism which had removed the Royal designation had been introduced by the former Minister of National Defense , Paul Hellyer in 1968 during the Liberal Government of Lester Pearson. It was said at the time that Hellyer had never forgiven the military for earlier perceived slights. Today Hellyer, now age 88, continues to support Stephen Hawking's warnings about an alien attack on earth by extraterrestrials.
Recently Defense Minister, Peter, McKay, in the Conservative Govt. of Stephen Harper announced that the use of the Royal prefix would be extended to the military's smaller branches in the now Canadian Royal Navy, the Royal Canadian Air force, and the Canadian Army. He stated further that the addition of the prefix would be a correction for a 43 year old mistake. These proposed changes have already been approved by the Queen. Veteran's groups across Canada are pleased as they have long lobbied PM Harper for a return to the Royal prefix.
Ritter
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Let Gen
Let Gen
Hardrations

Number of posts : 1045
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime24/8/2012, 05:18

Hey Ritter good note.

The only "perceived slights" I can see is having that Dirt Bag Hellyer as our M of D. Like most typical politicians he would have sold his mother and children just to be in politics. It was a change just for the sake of change. Should never have dropped the Royal prefix unless we break from the Commonwealth. The man took the value out of earning a Junior and Snr. NCO rank and Officers rank up to Capt. And he still whines and bitches about the change back.
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ritter
Maj
Maj
ritter

Number of posts : 265
Age : 90
Localisation : North Huron Township, ON,Canada
Cap Badge : Royal Canadian Artillery
Places Served : CFB Valcartier, CFB Borden, AFVR Meaford, Ipperwash, CAN; Hannover, Putlos; 21 Fd Regt RCA(M)
Registration date : 2011-07-09

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime25/8/2012, 04:02

Hardrations
Right on! I couldn't agree with you more.
Good to hear from you
Ritter
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Dan M
WOI
WOI
Dan M

Number of posts : 122
Age : 64
Localisation : Mississauga
Cap Badge : The Royal Canadian Regiment
Places Served : 1977-80, London ON, Gagetown NB
Registration date : 2010-03-22

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime30/8/2012, 22:19

ritter,

I hadn't heard that old uncle Paul was now waiting for ET to arrive. Maybe he's been insane this whole time.

It's true Hellyer integrated and unified the military for his own ends. He saw it as his stepping stone to becoming the Prime Minister. (He ran in the 1968 Liberal leadership convention but lost out in the 4th vote to Pierre Trudeau.) But don't give Lester Pearson a pass on this, either. He was the PM while Hellyer was doing his thing and supported him all the way.

For our British friends, integration was the term for disbanding the headquarters of the Royal Canadian Navy, the Canadian Army and the Royal Canadian Air Force and replacing them with a joint organization to which they would all report called Canadian Forces Headquarters. This took place on August 1, 1964, and saw the promotion of a lot of new Generals and Admirals for their support.

Unification was the dissolution of the three services and the creation of one uniformed military force called the Canadian Armed Forces. This took place 3 1/2 years later on February 1, 1968. This is the step that pissed off the serving members of the Forces at the time. A single green uniform came into force for all members becoming standard wear by 1971, which pissed off everyone even more.

Internally, the Forces went through a series of reorganizations at the Command level (the level immediately below CFHQ.) What it finally ended up being, by 1984, was Maritime Command, Air Command and Mobile Command (or Navy, Air Force and Army). Mobile Command was later renamed Land Forces Command. It's these three Commands that have now been renamed using the designation of the former separate service. If this isn't confusing enough, there are still integrated Commands like Communications Command and Training Command.

Since 1968, and the pronouncement by Hellyer that Canada was setting the trend for the eventual reorganization of all of the world's armed forces, not one country has followed our example. Integrated national headquarters? You betcha'. Unified armed forces? No thank you, Canada.

By the way, in 1972 the headquarters was integrated yet again. CFHQ and the public servants in the Department of National Defence were combined into one National Defence Headquarters. Uniformed members reporting to public servants, and vice versa.

So, how is the British military doing?

Cheers,
Dan.
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Let Gen
Let Gen
Hardrations

Number of posts : 1045
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime30/8/2012, 23:56

Kind of makes one remember some civil servant coming up with the idea of having a shovel with a hole in it so soldiers could dig with it and hid behind it with there Ross rifle through the hole ( WW 1). Good old Sam Hughes and Paul Hellyer would have got along to-gether wonderfully. Most of our Ministers of Defence are wonderfuly stupid in such wierd ways.
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JPW
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1101
Age : 78
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime1/9/2012, 07:49

Dan

Welcome back, good to have you on board (though I have not forgotten your robust response to my innocent enquiry about General McNaughton).

You asked about the current state of the British Armed Forces. My personal view is that whilst there is nothing wrong with the fighting soldiers thanks to the Politicians/Treasury accountants we are in a mess

1 The Royal Navy now as no operational Aircraft Carrier yet has mortgaged its future by ordering two which are not due to delivered until 2018 at the earliest (only one of which is likely to go to see)

2. For political/ economic reasons the RAF has ordered more of the over engineered Eurofighter than it needs and is still yet to make a decision on what aircraft should be provided for the above mentioned aircraft carriers

3 The Army is having to bear the consequences of the Defence Budget overspend and will shortly begin restructuring to what is called Army 2020. This assumes that
a. British pull out of Afghanistan by 2014
b.The British presence in Germany (two Armoured Brigades)finally ends in the next five years.
c. We shall never again embark in any independent military action
d. Based on the the American/Australian/ Canadian model sufficient effective part time volunteers can be recruited, trained and retained to replace 30,000 Regular soldiers (at least double the current operationally effective strength of our current TA (your Militia))

The Regular Army therefore reduces in Army 2020 plans to 80,000 the smallest it has been for 150 years

Oh and as aside we now face a less violent situation than Canada in the 1960s/70s with the demands for Scottish independence. In the Army 2020 Reorganisation at least two well recruited English Infantry Battalions and two Armoured Regiments will disband yet the under recruited Scottish equivalents emerge virtually unchanged as part of the political bribe to retain The Union.

Will PM you privately with more details and personal views
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Dan M
WOI
WOI
Dan M

Number of posts : 122
Age : 64
Localisation : Mississauga
Cap Badge : The Royal Canadian Regiment
Places Served : 1977-80, London ON, Gagetown NB
Registration date : 2010-03-22

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime2/9/2012, 18:44

JPW,

I've seen the aircraft carrier discussion in other places with arguments given on both sides of the issue. It seems to be the centre of any argument for the future of Britain's defence forces. I have to agree that without an 'out of theatre' commitment, Britain does not need any aircraft carriers. Nor does it need an expeditionary force made up of aircraft and soldiers. I hate to say this but I don't think that the reductions needed in the British Forces are even close to being reached.

Historically, why did Britain need a large army? India. Well the Indian commitment went away 65 years ago and the NATO commitment was just delaying the inevitable.

Why did Britain need a large air force? The Soviet Union. That's gone too and so is the threat from the Warsaw Pact.

Why did Britain need a large Navy? To defend itself from other European powers and maintain the empire. Again, all of that has gone.

Britain gave up its world power status decades ago. It is, however, still a European power will always need a defence force. But the requirement for a defence force for the home islands will see the numbers drop even more. The only thing that can save the forces from further reductions is an all out war with another power. Realistically, I can't see that happening.

Now, as to how the government is handling all of this, that is a completely different matter. The Army, especially the infantry and armoured units, are ill-suited to reductions because of the regimental system. Air Force squadrons can come and go, as can HM Ships, with nary a whimper. Likewise, artillery units, etc can be stood up or stood down without too much fuss. But the regiments, that is the problem. Sadly, devotion to one's regiment is all based on emotion and faith, and convincing the regimental family of the logic of the move is like trying to convert an apostle. Standing down a regiment will never be able to be done to everyone's satisfaction. And it's not fair when some are immune to the strictures (like the Guards, the Parachute Regiment, the Black Mafia and the Scottish regiments) that are mandatory to others.

But what if, instead of continuing amalgamations, regiments were struck off the order of battle waiting for recall when the nation needed them again? Whither the Cameronians? Gone from the OB, but available for reformation should they be required. And their name remains unsullied from forced unification with others. The Canadian Army did it in 1970. Struck 3 infantry and 1 armoured regiment off of the regular force OB. Screams and hair pulling at the time, barely remembered now.

Anyway, I'm rambling, as I tend to do. The British Army has been going through regimental reductions since the end of the Second World War, and I don't think it's over yet.

Cheers,
Dan.
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ritter
Maj
Maj
ritter

Number of posts : 265
Age : 90
Localisation : North Huron Township, ON,Canada
Cap Badge : Royal Canadian Artillery
Places Served : CFB Valcartier, CFB Borden, AFVR Meaford, Ipperwash, CAN; Hannover, Putlos; 21 Fd Regt RCA(M)
Registration date : 2011-07-09

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime2/9/2012, 21:46

Dan
Thanks for a very good analysis of the painful downsizing of the military with more of it to follow. I might add that on 1 Apr 1970 my own Regiment, 21 Fd Artillery Regt RCA(M), was transferred to Supplementary Order of Battle. 21 Fd with three field batteries had evolved from three county infantry battalions (Bruce, Huron, & Perth) all of which had been activated for duty overseas in WW1. In WW2, 21 Fd Regt recruited three batteries for overseas duty.
They fought the good fight
They followed their course
They kept the faith
St. Timothy

Ritter
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Let Gen
Let Gen
Hardrations

Number of posts : 1045
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime9/9/2012, 00:18

Got me thinking there Dan and Bob. I well remember the Fort Garry Horse in CFB Petawawa in 61 and 62 while in the Cdn. Gds Depot. Then the Queens Own Rifles in Calgary in 62/63. Then the Black Watch (Cdn) and the Fort Garry's again in Germany in 64/65. All the out fits I mention,gone now. Incidentally the Fort Garry Horse here in Wpg. have a super museum and curator to go with it. Also was fortunate in meeting a gentleman in the U.K. in 66 who had fought in the British army alongside the Fort Garry's in WW 1.
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Dan M
WOI
WOI
Dan M

Number of posts : 122
Age : 64
Localisation : Mississauga
Cap Badge : The Royal Canadian Regiment
Places Served : 1977-80, London ON, Gagetown NB
Registration date : 2010-03-22

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime9/9/2012, 21:25

HR,

I'm a Winnipegger too, born and bred. So, where you a Sig candidate at the Guards Depot? Heck of a way to be introduced into a technical corps.

Hopefully one day I'll be able to visit the FGH museum. I'm a document research-aholic. Like the Fort Garry's, the Queen's Own and the Black Watch are all survived by their militia units. The Canadian Guards went into Supplementary Order of Battle heaven, but they have managed to create a pretty good website considering it's been over 42 years since they've existed.

I have a copy of the Strathconian from 1970, and it relates the parade that saw the FGH, on maneuvers in Wainwright at the time, re-badge to LdSH. The regiment formed up with vehicles, wearing their tank gear, pulled the new cap badge out of their pockets, switched them on their berets, and went back to training. The LdSH in Germany did almost the same thing when they re-badge to RCD, but they were at Sennelager at the time. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. And now the 8CH is gone too.

Well, now that I've thoroughly depressed myself, I think I'll go lay down.

Cheers,
Dan.

PS: What is an RTG Op?
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Let Gen
Let Gen
Hardrations

Number of posts : 1045
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Return to "Royal" prefixes   Return to "Royal" prefixes Icon_minitime10/9/2012, 00:12

Hi Dan,

I was posted in Petawawa when the Guards had their last trooping of the colors and they became 3 RCR. Maybe I was a bad luck symbol for these out fits, I always seemed to be around when they got canceled out. What's an RTG Op? Well way back in the day they were Radio Telegraph Operators. Then became Rad Ops, Radio Operators now I believe they have changed it to some thing else. I remustered to the Cook trade, which was a good move on my part. I still refer to my first trade as RTG Op as it means more than Rad Op.
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