BFG/BAOR/RAFG Locations

www.baor-locations.org
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  Log in  
Latest topics
Navigation
 Portal
 Index
 Memberlist
 Profile
 FAQ
 Search
Who is online?
In total there are 19 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 19 Guests :: 1 Bot

None

Most users ever online was 144 on 31/12/2014, 23:57
December 2016
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
   1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
262728293031 
CalendarCalendar
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search

Share | 
 

 Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
623TACP
Cpl
Cpl


Number of posts : 12
Age : 51
Localisation : North West
Cap Badge : R.Signals
Places Served : Falklands, Cyprus (UN), Belize, The Gambia, BAOR, York (UK), Air Support Brize Norton and TCW
Registration date : 2012-10-22

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 10:46

Bit disappointed really. Clearly once they realised they had so much material that it could have made 2 shows they condensed it into one and skipped over the 80's and finished with a quick overview of early 90's. No mention of us almost going to war on Abel Archer, no mention of the Barder Meinhoff Gang, attack on Gadaffi, the BFBS Shows the better BFBS shows we used to get with 'me mark page' "Nah wat a mean leike'. BFG plated cars and increased numbers of squaddies driving across europe and going home, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Munich festivals etc. Never mentioned the old Sally Bash and the German trades like bratty wagons and tea vans that used to come onto camp. Old vehicles being towed everywhere and broken down. Doing exercises with the Poles after the wall came down, SOXMIS, BRIXMIS, just so much to be told.....
Back to top Go down
View user profile
brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 10:55

I'm with the blokes who were disappointed.

A lot of the newsreel stuff of drilling recruits was filmed in a UK barracks and a lot of the footage was shown twice. Given the size of the BBC archives I expected more original stuff.

I agree with Big Jock, the subject is far too big to be covered in a one-hour programme. The subject of Forces Families alone could fill at least one one hour slot.

And no mention of the CANADIAN BRIGADE, a major FAIL !

(Anybody notice the battledress with "box creases" ironed across the back of the jackets ? Death by firing squad for that, in our mob !).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 13:57

Brum, did you notice the HJ driver from 19 Bty - "6, Start up - Elevate"? Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile
JPW
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 978
Age : 75
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 16:09

I enjoyed the progamme as an hour long relatively lightweight snapshot of a bygone era. On reflection I agree with earlier contributors that there were gaps, triviality and differences of opinion depending on rank, era and location.

My major irritations included
1. A significant part of the programme was "little England" centric concentrating mainly on Rheindahlen and Berlin yet the vast majority of BAOR were proper soldiers, part of 1st (British) Corps (which was not mentioned) not "Base wallahs".

2. The indscriminate use of the word "Rhineland).Geographically speaking this is the area either side of the River Rhine, so far as many Germans are concerned it's Cologne and the area between the west bank of the River Rhine and the Dutch border ie Rheindahlen and Krefeld in BAOR speak. Dusseldorf, Duisburg and Dortmund are part of the Ruhr. Places such as Munster, Paderborn and Detmold are part of Westphalia (Westfalen). Heaven knows what the reaction of the inhabitants of places such as Hannover, Osnabruck or Celle would be if they were described as Rhinelanders.

3. Anglo German Relations. Again a somewhat generally anti bias. The number of contributors to this site who married German girls and the significant number who have subsequently settled in Germany proves the opposite. No mention was made of the Anglo German Societies set up in many Garrison towns nor the formal Partnerschaft between a number of similar units or Brigades (one example was that between the then Detmold based British 20 Armoured Brigade and the German Panzer Brigade in nearby Augustdorf).
On a related topic the residents of Bispingen and Behringen did suffer in the manner depicted but no mention was made of the British Damage Control Organisation (including the Canadian equivalent) and the "Maneuver Schaden" paid at the end of every FTX (a very useful source of top up income if the harvest was poor). We have discussed this subject a number of times on this site. In contrast I believe a number of the local Panzer Brigades had a pretty fearsome reputation for exercise damage at the time of the Herbst Maneuvers. As an aside it was rumoured that the residents of Behringen and Bispingen were complaining about their loss of income once the tank bypasses were completed
My opinions are influenced by the fact that I grew up, as the son of a serving soldier, in small "one off country towns" (the equivalent of Nienburg or Wulfenbuttel of later years) where the British were generally welcome and I had to befriend German children of a similar age to widen my social circle. In later years I served in a number of REME units which contained (and still do ) a significant number of skilled German workers (in later years these included former British soldiers who took local discharge (I suspect this may include a number of contributors to this site)).
As I result I could speak passable colloquial German, two personal memories. Firstly the night in the late 60s when the Warsaw Pact Forces invaded Czechoslovakia and as part of the British Autumn FTX was about 15 miles from the Inner Border. "Thank God its you Brits not the bloody Russians" was the general reaction. Secondly the number of times after ENDEX and the customary exchange of a bottle (s) of whisky in exchange for services rendered, after a couple of slugs the conversation turned from experiences on the Eastern Front to "next time we Germans will get it right, we will join up with you Brits, march on Paris and sort those Frogs out once and for all" (this was before EU came into being).

4.My final point concerns the Academic who grew up in Hohne. He made no mention of the fact that a significant part of the Garrison was originally built as accommodation for the SS Guard Force for the nearby Belsen Concentration Camp. Similarly he claimed he could not remember any of his classmates. As I have said before , I am a proud "Old Boy" of King Alfred School Ploen, there are others who contributors to this site), one of the two schools set up in the late 1940s to provide secondary education for the children of servicemen based in BAOR (others were to follow). Notwithstanding that the School closed in 1959 and we are now scattered to the four corners of the world an Annual Reunion is held in London attended by well over a 100 former pupils, the youngest now 65, the oldest nearly 90. Similar smaller Wyvern Gatherings are regularly held in Ottawa, Toronto and Sydney, more informal in South Africa, New Zealand and Vancouver. Our friendly rivals Prince Rupert School Wilhelmshaven would tell a similar story.

I have said enough. The programme was like the Curate's egg- "good in parts but might have been better". About a year ago a rival Channel produced a miniseries entitled I think "the Anglo Germans" which centred on a number of former servicemen of all ranks and ages who had settled in Germany (mainly in the Paderborn, Detmold, Bielefeld area but other locations were mentioned. This produced a more robust reflection of BAOR Life as we remember it. However BBC 4 might be persuaded to produce a second series to cover the points made on this site and doubtless by other viewers
Back to top Go down
View user profile
BobG
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 326
Age : 77
Localisation : Northumberland
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg, Verden, Liebenau, Hohne, Hamm, Duisburg, Minden, Hannover, Fallingbostal, Kuwait, UK, HK, USA/Can.
Registration date : 2008-02-27

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 16:39

Whilst I enjoyed the programme I agree with the earlier comments, it was a difficult subject to get over in 60 minutes. One thing which did not appear to come out about the early days was that the vast majoity of squaddies were NS who could not afford to go out and enjoy the local delights. As a regular, first posted to BAOR in 58, I was able to buy a car and get out and about, I became very friendly with a number of German lads in one of the outlying villages and enjoyed a good Anglo/German social life helped by my ability to speak some German, I was a service brat with prior time in Austria and Germany.

BobG
Back to top Go down
View user profile
brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 17:18

Shelldrake wrote:
Brum, did you notice the HJ driver from 19 Bty - "6, Start up - Elevate"? Smile

19 Bty ! I was trying to remember whos Bty sign it was.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
BigJock
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 117
Localisation : €uroland
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Arborfield, Bordon, Osnabrück, Paderborn and once again Paderborn.
Registration date : 2011-06-14

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 18:29

brum wrote:
Shelldrake wrote:
Brum, did you notice the HJ driver from 19 Bty - "6, Start up - Elevate"? Smile

19 Bty ! I was trying to remember whos Bty sign it was.

That looked more like 36Msl Bty to me.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
bigmal
Maj
Maj


Number of posts : 296
Age : 58
Localisation : Worksop, Notts
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E
Places Served : Fallingbostal, NI, Hohne, Fallingbostal, again.
Registration date : 2012-03-30

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 19:28

I found it very disappointing in the fact that there was almost nothing in the programme covering the period that I was there, ie mid 70`s to mid 80`s.

It was good to see footage of earlier periods, but to cover 60 odd years of Army life in one hour was an impossible ask, so, to me, the programme was a bit of a failure.

It really didn`t tell what life was like in Germany for the thousands of peoplke who served there.

I was there for about 9 years and can honestly say that I enjoyed every minute of it.

Even the Gas Chamber, trench digging, getting filthy as soon as the decks of a Chieftain were opened, all the weeks at a time spent on exercise etc. but most of all the mates I had and the people I met.

Especially the time that a TA bloke and myself found ourselves in Gastatte in the middle of a winter exercise on a maintenance break with 4 feet of snow every where, in the company of 6 old Gentlemen who turned out to be ex WW2 German Paratroopers. They loved the fact that we were sleeping in Bivvies at the side of our vehicles and not indoors and spent most of the evening drinking and `slagging off` the Dutch, whom they didn`t like, (with a passion, I might add) for wanting to rent his bowling alley for sleeping in during a summer exercise.

Great times, great memories.

Malc.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 19:40

blinking cheek not one picture of me did i see , ginger
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 20:00

I thought I saw you on there gingerjim, was that you giving the lads a lecture on cleanliness being next to Godliness?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
ritter
Maj
Maj


Number of posts : 265
Age : 87
Localisation : North Huron Township, ON,Canada
Cap Badge : Royal Canadian Artillery
Places Served : CFB Valcartier, CFB Borden, AFVR Meaford, Ipperwash, CAN; Hannover, Putlos; 21 Fd Regt RCA(M)
Registration date : 2011-07-09

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   23/10/2012, 20:20

BAOR(27CIB)
re: Documentary BAOR 22 Oct 2012
Unfortunately, I was not able to see the Documentary but hopefully a DVD may eventually find its
way to distant Canada. Nevertheless, I have reviewed with interest the many reviews submitted
in this forum. Even though the 27CIB served only briefly with the BAOR in Germany (1951-53),
I am disappointed and supportive of Brum's observation."And no mention of the CANADIAN
BRIGADE, a major FAIL!"
Ritter
Back to top Go down
View user profile
csqnblackhat
Sgt
Sgt


Number of posts : 32
Age : 70
Localisation : Carlisle
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Hohne, 11th Hussars, Munsterlager, 4 Fd Regt R.A. Warminster, School of Infantry Demo Squadron, 2RTR and 13/18 Hussars.
Registration date : 2011-09-11

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   27/10/2012, 00:25

I thoroughly enjoyed the program but as has already been said, there was too much material for the time allowed. As a former pupil at Windsor Boys School, I also felt this part of life in BAOR was shamefully neglected, the impression given was that there were schools for all ages at most locations in BAOR, which of course was never the case.
I always felt we had quite a good rapport with the locals wherever I served, including much mutual p***taking between both nationalities at successive football World Cup competitions in 1966 and 70, in the local hostelries, no violence, just lots of laughter and beer!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Wilf
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 314
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Bicester-Soltau-Canada-Kineton-Paderborn-Osnabruck (Inc Gulf 1) Donnington-Civy Strasse.
Registration date : 2008-10-22

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   27/10/2012, 18:04

I dont understand why people are whinging about it tbh. It may have been 'old hat' to some of the people who lived it, which is fair enough I suppose but what do you want? It was a programme about life in BAOR! (Pretty much what it said on the tin) I enjoyed the programme, even though my first taste of BAOR was not until 1980, when rationing was still in force, fuel coupon rationing...Anyway, I thought it was very watchable, but then I'm a nostalgia junkie.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   27/10/2012, 19:29

sheldrake . wot me a padre never , ginger
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   27/10/2012, 19:35

i was also i bit mystified about all this fighting with the locals , and the germans in general not liking us , i was stationed in viersen for two and a half years , i believe i was only ever in a couple of scraps , all in all i found the locals very nice people , most convivial in fact .it was belgium and the belgium people i did not like . nasty lot . ginger
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Wilf
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 314
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Bicester-Soltau-Canada-Kineton-Paderborn-Osnabruck (Inc Gulf 1) Donnington-Civy Strasse.
Registration date : 2008-10-22

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   27/10/2012, 20:51

At Soltau we regularly faught with the locals. I spent about ten years in Germany and in my experience Soltau was worse for fighting with the locals than any large garrison town, and it got pretty serious at times. In one particular brawl I lost four teeth and a young lad from the signal sqn was shot in the stomach (Yes shot with a pistol) after surgery he spent several months convalescing in the UK before returning. At Soltau the local lads hated us but I enjoyed the three years I spent there, great posting. I'd like to say I'd go back tomorrow, but sadly it's not there anymore.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hardrations
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1016
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   27/10/2012, 23:23

ritter wrote:
BAOR(27CIB)
re: Documentary BAOR 22 Oct 2012
Unfortunately, I was not able to see the Documentary but hopefully a DVD may eventually find its
way to distant Canada. Nevertheless, I have reviewed with interest the many reviews submitted
in this forum. Even though the 27CIB served only briefly with the BAOR in Germany (1951-53),
I am disappointed and supportive of Brum's observation."And no mention of the CANADIAN
BRIGADE, a major FAIL!"
Ritter

I have a mate in the UK who has made a DVD for me Bob. I'll probably have to get it changed over to our mode. Hopefuly it won't be a problem. I'll let you know. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile
ritter
Maj
Maj


Number of posts : 265
Age : 87
Localisation : North Huron Township, ON,Canada
Cap Badge : Royal Canadian Artillery
Places Served : CFB Valcartier, CFB Borden, AFVR Meaford, Ipperwash, CAN; Hannover, Putlos; 21 Fd Regt RCA(M)
Registration date : 2011-07-09

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   28/10/2012, 04:36

Hardration
Thanks; I'll look forward to that.
Ritter
Back to top Go down
View user profile
brian beckett
SSgt/CSgt
SSgt/CSgt


Number of posts : 47
Age : 78
Cap Badge : rasc
Places Served : Tower of London(initially in Royal Fusiliers) Aldershot, Sennelager & RAF Bruggen
Registration date : 2009-02-04

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   29/10/2012, 10:21



I totally agree with Wilf. The prgramme gave a general overview of BAOR, made for a mass TV audience of which the majority know little or nothing of what went on. I enjoyed it. Those of you out there complaining
seemed to have expected a programme tailored to you own personal experiences. The vintage shots of National Servicemen in training brought back a few memories, particurly the CSM giving a pep talk and the waste of time pay parade.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   29/10/2012, 19:33

all in all i enjoyed watching how things used to be , i still sat the old bds and 303 rifle drill was a lot smarter than todays army , i did laugh at the pay parade bit , brought back memories . ginger
Back to top Go down
View user profile
brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   30/10/2012, 20:29


Aah yes, Pay Parade. (When I first joined I thought they were teaching us the drill for something called "Paper Raid").
During one such parade I was descended on, roundly lambasted for the standard of my drill and sent out with the request that I do it again and the hope that I would "put some life in it !".
Fuelled by anger I marched in, crashed my size nines to a halt and watched horrified as all the neat little piles of pre-decimal currency leaped in the air. The Pay Corporal was quite miffed.
Boots Ammunition and wooden floors, recipe for disaster !
Back to top Go down
View user profile
brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   30/10/2012, 20:46


It's gone that quiet on here all that's missing is a few balls of Tumbleweed blowing around the dam' place.
I notice that, in the follow up to the BAOR film thing, one or two people have used such words as "wingeing" and "complaining" to indicate their displeasure at the comments made by the other chaps who also watched the film.
At the beginning of this thread the BBC chappie asked people to make any comments that they had about the show and that's what they've been doing. Pay attention at the back !

(Steward ! Get the bloody bar open !).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
ciphers
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 948
Age : 83
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   30/10/2012, 21:10

Quit yer 'wingeing' .... here's your bleedin Tumbleweed

Len (Ciphers)


Photobucket
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://lenpayne.com/Len_Payne/Jim_Chapman.html
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   30/10/2012, 22:18

Where`s Calamity Jane??



It`s quiet cos the site`s been down...
Back to top Go down
Hardrations
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1016
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   30/10/2012, 23:07

Pay Parade...

I remember one particular Pay Officer in 65/66 in Fort Prince of Wales in Germany. Who felt that he should be treated with all the respects and honours due a paper pushing dip stick who held her Majesty's Commission in the Canadian Army. A weasley looking bachelor who took his huge German Shepard as a constant companion. As far as I know he , lived in the Officers Mess unloved and unappreciated by the RCHA and SSM Bty Officers. Expected all his pay parades should be treated like a high mass personally done by the Pope. One should approach him in reverence and sincere worshiping attitude. It was lovely in April 66 ( I well remember the time and date) that he had to lay a huge stack of D.M.'s on me as re-enlistment bonus that the govt was giving out. I had re-upped for 6 years and the poor prick just couldn't appreciate a Signalman getting all that loot. He twice got the pay clerk to check the accounts sheet. I guess not being able to be a real soldier bit into his debit and balance heart.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4   Today at 19:39

Back to top Go down
 
Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Documentary about BAOR life on Monday 22nd October BBC4
» LivLife bread back in Waitrose from Monday 20th October!
» BBC 4 film about the BAOR
» 22nd Armoured Brigade
» RAF Stations in BAOR

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
BFG/BAOR/RAFG Locations :: General - Non-BAOR-
Jump to: