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 Ceremonial

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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 76
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Ceremonial   3/12/2013, 16:34

Watching our PM on the news last night, walking past a Chinese guard of honour.
I noticed that the guard were using a vintage rifle,(still ain't figured out what it was yet) but I really do think that we should follow the Yanks and others in using an older rifle on ceremonial occasions.
For my money, the Lee-Enfield No4 would fit the bill, even the SLR would look better than the SA80 does when used on public events.
Must stick a bayonet on the end though !
(Anybody noticed Cameron's Barnet lately ? He's got a comb-over mullet which looks like it's about to slip down the back of his head).
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ciphers
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
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Number of posts : 961
Age : 83
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   3/12/2013, 18:55

The SMLE had a better point of balance for drill purposes in my opinion.
Had the option in the Army Cadets (1947 - 51) to handle both SMLE and the Number 4, found the SMLE great for drill and a better rifle for accurate fire with the leaf back sight than the two options of sighting on the Number 4.
During Regular service used Number 4 as that was then standard issue with a various assortments of bayonets.
After Regular service in the TA we used Number 4's and then SLR which I found to be quite an accurate weapon and the new drill was soon adopted.
When attached to the Aussies in Japan (1954) we used the old SMLE for guard mounting with the 18" sword bayonet ... The Aussies were mostly 6ft plus whileI am 5' 7" .... quite a humorous site when I was guard commander.

Len (Ciphers)
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   4/12/2013, 21:46

I'm reminded that when we mounted guard at Todendorf Ack-Ack firing camp, the Brit element turned out well blancoed & sharply creased. The No. 4 Enfields they toted, coins in the mag to enhance slapping drill, were locked in the guardroom racks and replaced with pick helves.

We shared the duty with a US regt, their representative strolled into sight solo, his rifle loosely held almost scraping the tarmac. He clung on to it throughout his two hours on the gate, the clip of eight rounds of 30 cal. for the Garand stayed in his ammo pouch for the moment.

I suppose Brit bullshit might have impressed the locals, but I wonder which guard would have been more scary if any outsiders had turned nasty.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   5/12/2013, 07:58

brum wrote:
Watching our PM on the news last night, walking past a Chinese guard of honour.
(Anybody noticed Cameron's Barnet lately ? He's got a comb-over mullet which looks like it's about to slip down the back of his head).

I have noticed that he is "Affecting" the George Bush/Tony Blair walk!jocolor 
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Daveb
WOI
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Number of posts : 105
Localisation : Bristol
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Iserlohn, Herford X 2
Registration date : 2010-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   5/12/2013, 18:51

I noticed that other Nations/Country's Military don't have the habit of parading in No8 dress, something we seem to be doing regularly, with or without medals, despite it being against dress regs. I think it disrespectful to wear anything less than best kit at a war memorial.
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 76
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   6/12/2013, 10:04

I'm with you there mate.
I remember seeing a news article where Prince Harry was taking the salute from one of the Guards battalions. Dressed in desert kit they looked a right scruffy bunch.
Some brasshat must've okayed it all the same.
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   6/12/2013, 12:16

brum wrote:
I'm with you there mate.
I remember seeing a news article where Prince Harry was taking the salute from one of the Guards battalions. Dressed in desert kit they looked a right scruffy bunch.
Some brasshat must've okayed it all the same.
And I bet the TV cameras focused on females in the ranks !

No argument from this loc..........  Don't know which would be worse though -----------  Bearskins & unpressed cam kit,  or berets pulled down over forehead & badge 1" above left ear.  There's a time for allowing some individual expression, but not on formal occasions.

My NS lot might not have had much experience in lethal soldiering skills and there was more emphasis given to proper turnout than to Skill at Arms or the handling of scary implements like a No.36 Grenade.

Twos up, on the Blanco, Smudger !.  

Hrumph !!!!!
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Dee Z
WOI
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Number of posts : 163
Age : 72
Cap Badge : RA
Places Served : Pembroke Dock, Lippstadt,Plymouth, Middle east, Singapore
Registration date : 2011-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   6/12/2013, 13:54

so this is what happened to 22 Sigs Regt


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gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   6/12/2013, 19:53

bring back the old bd . smarten the buggers up a bit , and when did the british army make its barbers redundant, ginger
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Daveb
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Number of posts : 105
Localisation : Bristol
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Iserlohn, Herford X 2
Registration date : 2010-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   6/12/2013, 22:09

gingerjim wrote:
bring back the old bd . smarten the buggers up a bit , and when did the british army make its barbers redundant, ginger
They made barbers redundant around the same time they ordered beret's from Andy Capp.
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Shelldrake
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FM
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   7/12/2013, 08:10

I could be wrong, but I don't remember a left or right turn at "The Order"?
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 76
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   7/12/2013, 10:53

You could indeed be wrong, old chap, there was. study 
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Eric England
Maj
Maj
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Number of posts : 232
Age : 64
Localisation : China
Cap Badge : REME 1972 - 1984
Places Served : Arborfield, Deepcut Camberley 25 Lt Regt Catterick/NI, 4 Lt Regt Catterick/NI, 655 Sqn AAC Detmold, QRIH Padderbon, 9/12 Lancers Muenster, 655 Tank Tptr Sqn Fallingbostel, HQ REME 3rd Armd Div Korbecke, SEE Arborfield, HQ REME Trg Center Arborfield.
Registration date : 2013-04-22

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   7/12/2013, 13:12

brum wrote:
You could indeed be wrong, old chap, there was. study 
Yes there was.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   7/12/2013, 13:27

I hate smart arses!! Sad Sad Rolling Eyes 
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gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   7/12/2013, 19:12

definition of smart arse .. poof wearing a suit ,
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Wilf
Lt Col
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Number of posts : 314
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Bicester-Soltau-Canada-Kineton-Paderborn-Osnabruck (Inc Gulf 1) Donnington-Civy Strasse.
Registration date : 2008-10-22

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   7/12/2013, 20:27

Imo the SA80 is bloody awful to drill with, to short. Admittedly I only had to put up with the damned thing for 2 or 3 years (Having left in 1992) I found it a horrible unreliable pain in the arse in every respect. If memory serves just fitting the sling was a six week course!..

Watch trooping the colour from the 1980's when the guards used the SLR, in my humble the drill is much smarter, none of that slope arms nonsense. Of course It could be that I'm an old cumdgeon who has a soft spot for the SLR.
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Eric England
Maj
Maj
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Number of posts : 232
Age : 64
Localisation : China
Cap Badge : REME 1972 - 1984
Places Served : Arborfield, Deepcut Camberley 25 Lt Regt Catterick/NI, 4 Lt Regt Catterick/NI, 655 Sqn AAC Detmold, QRIH Padderbon, 9/12 Lancers Muenster, 655 Tank Tptr Sqn Fallingbostel, HQ REME 3rd Armd Div Korbecke, SEE Arborfield, HQ REME Trg Center Arborfield.
Registration date : 2013-04-22

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   8/12/2013, 09:53

Wilf wrote:
Imo the SA80 is bloody awful to drill with, to short. Admittedly I only had to put up with the damned thing for 2 or 3 years (Having left in 1992) I found it a horrible unreliable pain in the arse in every respect. If memory serves just fitting the sling was a six week course!..

Watch trooping the colour from the 1980's when the guards used the SLR, in my humble the drill is much smarter, none of that slope arms nonsense. Of course It could be that I'm an old cumdgeon who has a soft spot for the SLR.
I must agree, maybe we should have weapons for drill and ceremony and seperate weapons for the real fighting.
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Dee Z
WOI
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Number of posts : 163
Age : 72
Cap Badge : RA
Places Served : Pembroke Dock, Lippstadt,Plymouth, Middle east, Singapore
Registration date : 2011-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   8/12/2013, 12:18

another disbandment


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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   8/12/2013, 12:38

[quote="
I must agree, maybe we should have weapons for drill and ceremony and seperate weapons for the real fighting.[/quote]

If there's going to be much more chopping & changing, maybe we should forget about fighting & concentrate on ceremonial.

BRING BACK BROWN BESS........ NOW !
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Eric England
Maj
Maj
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Number of posts : 232
Age : 64
Localisation : China
Cap Badge : REME 1972 - 1984
Places Served : Arborfield, Deepcut Camberley 25 Lt Regt Catterick/NI, 4 Lt Regt Catterick/NI, 655 Sqn AAC Detmold, QRIH Padderbon, 9/12 Lancers Muenster, 655 Tank Tptr Sqn Fallingbostel, HQ REME 3rd Armd Div Korbecke, SEE Arborfield, HQ REME Trg Center Arborfield.
Registration date : 2013-04-22

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   8/12/2013, 12:52

If there's going to be much more chopping & changing, maybe we should forget about fighting & concentrate on ceremonial.

BRING  BACK  BROWN  BESS........ NOW !

I thought this is what we were already doing.
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gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   8/12/2013, 18:52

here we go again racial prejudice rears it head once more , brown bess indeed , coloured bess if you please , ginger.
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Daveb
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Number of posts : 105
Localisation : Bristol
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Iserlohn, Herford X 2
Registration date : 2010-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   11/12/2013, 16:03

When challenged they regs can be found with alarming speed:

Thank you for further email of 3 December to the Ministry of Defence following our response to your
Freedom of Information request of 20 November 2013 (Ref: 21-11-2013-103314-006) in which you
requested the regulations on the wearing of medals on operational clothing.  

I apologise if our response of 3 December has not fully answered your request for information.  (they sent me "Cadet" regulations regarding "operational clothing and Medals" , well I ask you, was that stupid or what?.)
Please find enclosed Part 13 of the Army Dress Regulations, which contains instructions for the
“Wearing of the Insignia of Orders, Decorations and Medals”. Specific guidance on wearing medals
on combat uniform can be found in the following paragraphs:
13.022
Orders of Dress on which Awards are to be Worn.  Orders, Decorations and Medals
are worn with the following orders of dress:
a.         Full Dress, and Frockcoat (Not H Div).
b.         Nos 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10 and 11 Dress.
c.         No 8 Dress when authorised by regional commanders for specific parades.
13.023
When Awards are not Worn.  Orders, Decorations and Medals are not to be worn:
a.         On greatcoats.
b.         When attending an Investiture.
c.         When attending Royal garden parties.
d.         When attending parades or ceremonies as a spectator unless ordered to wear them.
e.         On operational or protective clothing.


I hope this is helpful.  

Yours sincerely,

Para 13-022-C  would appear to allow it  but it's still not allowed under 13-023-E as far as my understanding of English goes.

I feel we are not that far removed from Baseball caps sideways, trousers at half mast and shirt tails in the breeze. Red white and blue Bearskins are also rumoured to be in the pipeline.

May the good Lord preserve us from the Mandarins of the MoD, Amen
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Nige P
Sgt
Sgt


Number of posts : 35
Age : 62
Localisation : Erdington, Birmingham
Cap Badge : RCT(V), RLC(V)
Places Served : Grantham, Long Marston, Bicester, Marchwood and most rail served depots with the TA in BAOR
Registration date : 2010-11-24

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   12/12/2013, 06:52

I can see how the above regs confuse people. From a serving (albeit Reservist) soldier, I think medals on MTP look stupid. They even looked stupid on CS95, MTPs predecessor. The ample cut of MTP means they don't hang correctly. However, at our recent Remembrance Parade, the soldiers were authorised to wear medals on MTP. The reasoning behind this is that they are only issued MTP in the Reserves. Only Officers and SNCOs are issued FAD (No 2 Dress, and that's sh*te as well). This is probably the only chance they get to wear medals, hence the authorisation 13-022-c.

Regular soldiers are issued FAD from the start. So there should be no reason to wear medals on MTP. However, those returning from Ops normally exercise their right to parade through the streets of their local town/city then have their medal parade. The people like to see the soldiers 'as they are', hence marching in MTP with medals, so they get to wear their medals on MTP for their medal parade.

Para 13.023-e is therefore quite correct, they are only worn when authorised for MTP under specific circumstances under 13.022-c.

It's still sh*te though.

Nige
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 76
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   12/12/2013, 10:56

Dee Z wrote:
another disbandment



Trust the Gunners to produce smart drill, very good.

(That band must think Dressing is something you pour on a salad !  Rolling Eyes ).
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Daveb
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Places Served : Iserlohn, Herford X 2
Registration date : 2010-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Ceremonial   12/12/2013, 11:56

You could say that the Bands dressing fell short of your expectations, common thing that Brum
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