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 Kitchener Barracks

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Paul
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PostSubject: Kitchener Barracks   27/5/2008, 19:26

According to information received from the QRL Museum, the 16th/5th Lancers were in these Barracks for a time in 1947.

Anybody any notions of where this camp may have been, and how ling the Lancers spent there?

Paul.
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   29/7/2010, 18:49

Further to Paul's original query the Regimental History for the period states that the 16/5th Lancers were in Kitchener Barracks Schleswig from March to October 1947. This also gives the location as the former Cavalry Barracks in the town

They were clearly not the first occupants, who another source has indicated, may have been a Sapper unit in Summer 1945
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   30/7/2010, 15:17

Just been checking out a German website

http://www.alte-schleihalle.de/freiheit_caterham_barracks.html and believe there is only one barracks there the former Seefleigerhorst Kaserne http://www.alte-schleihalle.de/freiheit_abt16.html

Looking at the various photos and maps looks like Kitchener and Caterham are the same barracks

3/4 County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters) arrived Mar 46 and departed April 46 for Newcastle Barracks to prepare the barracks for 5 RTR departing for Wyvern Barracks Lüneburg Jun 46 and disbandment Sep 46 source War Dairies and Regimental Journal it does not state it but believe they prepared Kitchener and renaming to Caterham Barracks (confirmed by JPW) the earlier occupants recorded - 404 District Command Royal Engineers (DCRE) - Garrison Engineer Bn/Regt (assuming made up of 8 Corps District RE Field Coys/Sqns) - RAF personnel (properly for RAF Scheswigland a few miles south west of the town)
Have emailed the website for confirmation
Regards
Steve study
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   30/7/2010, 19:17

To add to the Schleswig story, which as Steve indicates, is still under investigation

The first British Troops into the town in May 1945 must have been 8th Battalion Rifle Brigade (the Lorried Infantry Battalion of 29 Armoured Brigade). They however, like many other units did not "slum" it in the town but took over a nearby Schloss as their HQ. They were quickly followed by the actual Brigade HQ who similarly took over the Town Hall (Stadt Halle)

3/4 County of London Yeomanry replaced 8RB when the latter returned to the UK.

Interestingly there is no mention of HQ 2 Parachute Brigade who were definitely based in the Town from March/April 1948 till they swapped locations with the Norwegian Brigade in the Hannover area in July of that year

More to follow when I find more authoritive information.
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   31/7/2010, 09:29

Bit more

As the RE were there Kitchener Barracks Schleswig named after Lord Kitchener later 40 Advanced Engineers Stores Regiment was formed in January 1952 at Willich the former Becker Steelworks renamed Kitchener Barracks under the command of the Chief Engineer BAOR to bring together the engineer resources and repair units in BAOR

http://www.remuseum.org.uk/biography/rem_bio_kitchener.htm

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Steve
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   31/7/2010, 13:08

Have had a reply from www.alte-schleihalle.de

On 6 May 45 a group of 4 officers including an air commodore from Lüneburg (HQ 21 Army Group/2 Army) and a detachment of RAF regiment for the airfield at Jagel nearby arrived at Scheleswig and established a HQ in Hotel Stadt Hamburg but the German Forces and not yet fully surrendered so German and English were double sentries outside for a while General Colonel Stupff the local military commander was expecting the party and surrendered the Seefleigerhorst Kaserne and various public buildings were seized by Commander 83 Group BUT the barracks were full with thousands of German Army and Airforce soldiers and 1100 civilian helpers and there were all locked up!

Then not recorded is JPW’s research regarding 29 Armd Bde and 8 Bn Rifle Bde so would like to pass this on as they are seeking more information from May 45 to Sep 48 when the Norwegians arrived the barracks must have been huge and looks the RE named it Kitchener and shared with 8 Battalion Rifle Brigade who were replaced by 3/4 County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters) when 29 Armd Bde and 11 Armd Div disbanded and 31 Armd Bde took over the area named Caterham Barracks the Sharpshooters moved out Apr 46 and 16/5 Lancers moving in May 46 (well recorded on the locations page) the RE were probably there too but needs to be confirmed along with who arrived after 16/5 Lancers before 2 Para Bde units

Now 100% sure Kitchener and Caterham and Marine are all the same barracks post May 45 the RE Coys/Sqns were arranged as 29 and 30 Army Troops RE command 21 Army Gp/HQ BAOR in the rebuilding of the German infrastructure with 29 returned to UK Mar 48 and 30 Jan 49 but locations are not clear in the "History of the Corps of Royal Engineers" for this period so needs more research

Thanks to JPW for his input I’m still working on 30 Corps District and their Divs/Bdes which is proving difficult and suspect 8 Corps District will be the same

Cheers
Steve
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   31/7/2010, 18:41

Steve

Pleased to be of help and feel free to pass on any relevent details to the Schleswig authorities

Will forward you my working notes on the Norwegians and 2 Parachute Brigade

Horrendous is the correct description for 8 Corps, clearly they were a lower operational/manning priority compared to 30 Corps and Divisions/Brigades changed location/ command very frequently in 1945/46
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mjm34
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   1/8/2010, 15:57

steve wrote:
Now 100% sure Kitchener and Caterham and Marine are all the same barracks post May 45 the RE Coys/Sqns were arranged as 29 and 30 Army Troops RE command 21 Army Gp/HQ BAOR in the rebuilding of the German infrastructure with 29 returned to UK Mar 48 and 30 Jan 49 but locations are not clear in the "History of the Corps of Royal Engineers" for this period so needs more research

Cheers
Steve
study

Just my opinion Steve, I have no evidence to back it up. Having looked at the area covered by the original Marine Kaserne on Google Earth, and judging by the number of buildings it looks big enough to have housed 4 major units. That being the case it's possible that the occupying forces split it up and gave each unit area a separate barracks name.

Cheers/Mike
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   1/8/2010, 16:24

Have updated the locations page today
http://baor-locations.co.uk/Marine.aspx

So far only a couple of units were there at the same time and now established it was a prison for several thousand for a while before British troops moved it...let us see what happens with fresh input from the website and if so the page can be updated...will be emailing www.alte-schleihalle.de with the link and permission to use their images there is an excellent 16/5 Lancers account on the locations page and sharing at that time is not mentioned but the Norwegian Bde got their HQ and support units in there but it must have been full as the workshop was at the nearby RAF station
Cheers
Steve
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   1/8/2010, 18:20

Steve, Mike

I too have been looking for the Barracks in Schleswig

Am I right in thinking the pre War Marine Kaserne, in British times Caterham Barracks was in the area to the east of the town marked Kaserne der Freiheit on Google Earth ?

Have looked elsewhere in the area of the town, just to the west on Schloss Insel is what could have been a former barracks complex now redeveloped and a Museum
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   1/8/2010, 18:53

JPW
Correct...looking at the German website photos and the 16/5 Lancers photos and script…to the east of the town…the term Marine could be incorrect as it was a Flying Boat (Seefleiger) Barracks...have a long email in German and my translation skills are not the best but appears to be only one barracks the Seefleigerhorst Kaserne and various public buildings that were seized by the British and as you have found 8th Battalion Rifle Brigade took over the nearby Schloss (have also seen on maps) as their HQ but assume only as the barracks were full of prisoners...needs more research and will enquiry about the castle grounds when asking to display the photos on the locations page
Cheers
Steve
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brum
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   2/8/2010, 20:30

I've been looking at the "Schleswig" site, it makes great reading. I'd have loved the job they had, looking for Nazi loot, etc.

What I can't figure out though is that the two men in the photo are not wearing 16/5 Lancers cap badges. They're not County of London Yeomanry either, or Rifle brigade. I've searched the two books that I have and can't find the badge anywhere.

Does anyone have any ideas ?

brum
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   3/8/2010, 08:38

Brum

Agree with you that the two troopers are not wearing 16/5th Lancers capbadges

However they might be wearing the amalgamated 3/4 County of London Yeomanry version (there is an excellent website entitled History of 7 Armoured Division which gives a brief resume of individual Regiments in WW2 and includes capbadges in the heading).
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   3/8/2010, 10:22

The reason for the cap badge is many units were disbanded and sent to new units through Reinforcement Holding Units and cap badges were changed later so some continued to wear their old cap badge in their new unit sorry cannot help with which unit it is

Extract from the War Diaries of 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters)

21/1/46 Small advance party left for prospective new Regt area at SCHLESWIG
12/2/46 C Sqn completes move to SCHLESWIG
27/2/46 First Regt party move to SCHLESWIG (MR 2563 J/4)
1/3/46 SCHLESWIG 3/4th CLY under command 31 Armd Bde
1/4/46 HAMM Regiment left Schleswig for new area (HAMM B.088435) leaving a small rear party behind

Have found a cap badge
Photobucket

The complete 1946 journal in pdf is on the www but cannot find the link so send a PM if you want a copy

Regards
Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   3/8/2010, 17:56

Clearly this is going to be "one of those" cap badges !

Thanks for the feedback chaps.

brum
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   28/10/2010, 05:40

JPW The photo I have of Mr Finch has the same emblem on his uniform sleeve as you have on your profile. I can send the pic.
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   23/4/2012, 09:53

Gentlemen

Help please, am continuing with my detailed researches into the British Army presence in Schleswig Holstein in the late 1940s., including the town of Schleswig. Not an easy task as there are a large number of source documents some of which give conflicting evidence.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that whilst I agree that Caterham/Cavalry Barracks was the Hitler era Seaplane base on the shores of the Schlei, Kitchener Barracks was the old Moltke Kaserne in the centre of town.

Amongst my arguments for this theory is the photo of the Sapper major on the German site, the brickwork on the wall behind him is not that of a Hitler era barrack block but the earlier local Victorian (UK equivalent) style

Googling the subject brings no clear evidence of the history of Moltke Kaserne beyond the fact after early use by the British in 1945 it was subsequently used (like the nearby Schloss ) to provide emergency accommodation for the thousands of refugees displaced from East Prussia and the Baltic States who had to be rehoused in Schleswig Holstein

Any others care to add to the story?
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PostSubject: Re: Kitchener Barracks   31/3/2013, 18:42

Further research in the Military Section of the National Archives at Kew has indicated that it was originally intended that Headquarters 11 Armoured Division would be based in the town. This was subsequently changed to Headquarters 29 Armoured Brigade

By the time the advance party of HQ 29 Brigade arrived in Schleswig there was no suitable spare accommodation and apart from an office in the Rathaus HQ 29 Armoured Brigade was based to the east in the village of Moldenit and adjacent Manor House.

Moltke Barracks was adapted as an emergency hospital throughout Summer 1945 to treat former Russian POWs and other Foreign Nationals who had been employed as Forced Labour in the area.

Kitchener Barracks was a Sapper enclave within the former Kriegsmarine Seaplane Barracks, 8th Battalion Rifle Brigade were based in the Schloss in the western outskirts of the town.

Full history of the British (and Norwegian) presence in Schleswig will be posted in due course on the master document to be found off the Locations Section of the original BAOR Locations Home Page.
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