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 Searching for personnel records of the BAOR

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Johann Heinrich
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2016-05-09

PostSubject: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   9/5/2016, 14:06

Hello,

my Name is Johann and I´m writing from Germany. The reason of my post here is that I´m doing privately family research since 2005.
For some time I'm trying to find the personnel records of my deceased Uncle Werner Stark, who lived until his death in 1984 in
the City of Mönchengladbach. His profession was plumber, he served from 1939 until 1945 a soldier in the German Wehrmacht and came at the end of war first into American and later then into British captivity. At an unknown time, he took up employment at the BAOR.

Some time ago I have written some letters to various facilities in England, like The National Archives and DBS asking for help. Unfortunately I received so far no concrete evidence of a targeted search according to possible personal documents of German employees of the BAOR.

Unfortunately I am not a good English speaker and make many mistakes, so I cant use  the eligible English
Website´s like the one of the National Archives for my search. I´m using the Bing-Translator to write in english, and I have to apologize for my mistakes.

Can someone please tell me where I could find the personal records of my uncle from his time at the BAOR?
Thank you! Johann
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steve
LE Maj
LE Maj
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Number of posts : 760
Age : 68
Localisation : near Cuxhaven
Cap Badge : Royal Signals + Royal Engineers
Places Served : Verden-Aller + Willich + Iserlohn + Hameln
Registration date : 2010-02-14

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   9/5/2016, 19:27

Welcome Johann

I am sure this will be a VERY difficult mission for you, the 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division relieved the Americans on the 8 Jun 45 in the Mönchengladbach region and the higher command was 1st Corps District HQ in Rhede later Iserlohn

Have been through the 1st Corps District records on file and sorry unable to offer any help

Your Uncle as a plumber could have been working for the Royal Engineers or the Pioneer Corps in a Labour Company

Sorry could be wrong but sure his personal records will not exist

Best regards
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Goldmohur
WOII
WOII


Number of posts : 93
Age : 76
Localisation : Doncaster
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Gutersloh, Duisburg, Bracht, Rheindahlen. Also Non BAOR, Blackdown, Corsham. Shoeburyness, Ty Croes, Aden, Bicester.
Registration date : 2007-03-10

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   11/5/2016, 13:21

Men with trade like your uncle were employed in Work units called Artisan Groups. They wore a sort of uniform and lived in British Barracks but they were civilians.
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Johann Heinrich
LCpl
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Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2016-05-09

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   11/5/2016, 15:29

Hello and thank you for your answers!

I´m sorry, but perhaps I've made myself wrong:
My uncle was already released from British captivity in 1946. At some point in later years, he then got an employment as a civilian German employee of the BAOR at Mönchengladbach. He was married and had a small apartment for rent near the Gero Park, he worked for the BAOR until he died unexpectedly in 1984 at the Age of 61 years - four years before reaching his official retirement. Therefore, I'm looking for his personnel file from the time of his official employment as a civilian employee of the BAOR. Maybe there are also former work colleagues here in the Forum, who knew him personally?

I think he was working in a Store- or Warehouse or something similar in a British barracks, perhaps also as a craftsman. Sometimes he brought us children some little gifts like colourful British Army Badges or some sweet British Caramel Candies, once he gave me a dark green army cargo Pants. His working place must have been in or near around Mönchengladbach, he always traveled for his job with public Transport.

Regards, Johann
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steve
LE Maj
LE Maj
avatar

Number of posts : 760
Age : 68
Localisation : near Cuxhaven
Cap Badge : Royal Signals + Royal Engineers
Places Served : Verden-Aller + Willich + Iserlohn + Hameln
Registration date : 2010-02-14

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   11/5/2016, 18:39

Johann

Thanks for the update, by late 1945 early 1946, 3 Pioneer & Civilian Labour Unit was the British Army Labour Organisation administered by 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division from 1 Feb 47 2nd Infantry Division for the Mönchengladbach area

The HQ of 3 Pioneer & Civilian Labour Unit was in Düsseldorf but there was a sub office in the Westend area of Monchengladbach as at Jan 1948, not sure beforehand as records are not great for this time

Hoping this lead helps in your research, best of luck!



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burgess720
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 122
Registration date : 2008-07-09

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   12/5/2016, 00:40

steve wrote:
Johann

Thanks for the update, by late 1945 early 1946, 3 Pioneer & Civilian Labour Unit was the British Army Labour Organisation administered by 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division from 1 Feb 47 2nd Infantry Division for the Mönchengladbach area

The HQ of 3 Pioneer & Civilian Labour Unit was in Düsseldorf but there was a sub office in the Westend area of Monchengladbach as at Jan 1948, not sure beforehand as records are not great for this time

Hoping this lead helps in your research, best of luck!



Hi Johann,

From memory in the early 1950's we collected new vehicles from Monchengladbach or close by; guess this would have been operated by the RASC, maybe that association has records
In Osnabruck we had a fair number of civilians working for us, in the cook house; we also had a man German clerk typist [even though we had Army Clerks on our strength

Good luck with your research, hope you find out what you want, it is very important for your family as well as recording history before it is lost

Regards
Sapper
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Goldmohur
WOII
WOII


Number of posts : 93
Age : 76
Localisation : Doncaster
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Gutersloh, Duisburg, Bracht, Rheindahlen. Also Non BAOR, Blackdown, Corsham. Shoeburyness, Ty Croes, Aden, Bicester.
Registration date : 2007-03-10

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   12/5/2016, 15:29

All the main BAOR Logistical units were located in and around Monchen Gladbach and these large units employed many hundreds of local men and women. There were more civilians employed than British soldiers. There was 15 Advanced Base Ordnance Depot and 17 Rear Vehicle Depot. Also 3 Base Ammunition Depot but his was located at Bracht near to the Netherlands border. If he had access to he badges and garments you mention then 15 ABOD which was located at Viersen sounds the most likely. Additionally Headquarters British Army of the Rhine was in a large purpose built community, like a small British town, and this was near to the village of Rheindahlen - many hundreds of local civilians were employed in the Headquarters and supporting units.

You do not say where you are located Johann.


The archives of Monchen Gladbach or an appeal in the local newspapers may bring results.
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JPW
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1025
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   12/5/2016, 16:25

Johann

Welcome

From what you have said your Uncle must have been employed as a civilian not a member of the British Army sponsored German Services Organisation or similar.

I am a fairly frequent visitor to the British National Archives in Kew London researching questions about he detailed History of BAOR. Am certain therefore they do not hold any details of your Uncle's employment record.

He would have been employed by the British Pioneer and Civl Labour Organisation with its Headquarters for the Rhineland in Dusseldorf and a subordinate Headquarters in Monchen Gladbach. I think you should concentrate your search for information in the German Civil Labour Employment archives there.

Good luck
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Johann Heinrich
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2016-05-09

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   13/5/2016, 12:28

Hello,

thank you very much for your answers!

Unfortunately I don't know the employment relationships of the British army at all, but maybe I only don't understand the exact correlations.
I assumed so far, that the employment relationships of civil servants of the British army are similar as those in the German Bundeswehr.
There the civilian staff (like for example craftsmen, civil truck drivers, kitchen- and security personnel and Employees of clothing and material issue) were employed (until the year 2007) at the so-called site Management (in German "Standortverwaltung/StoV), which was subordinated to the respective military district Administration (in German "Wehrbereichsverwaltung") and was responsible for the civilian human and material supply and support in single or multiple locations (barracks) in this military area.
I'm always assumed, that my uncle was hired at a British military administration for the British army site in Mönchengladbach and received a work contract of this as civilian employee.

Is there an Office / Headquarters in the current structure of the British army in the Rhineland/at Mönchengladbach, where I could submit a written request? Maybe it could even make sense to make a request to BFG in Bielefeld for archived personal documents of my uncle there?

Regards, Johann
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alan8376
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 393
Age : 69
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   13/5/2016, 15:06

Hi Johann,

If you were lucky to trace your uncle's employment files, do you think they will release details which would be classed as 'Personal/Private' concerning your uncle employment? I think not! That is unless you could force it via the German and or British Judicary system using a Lawyer. For that to happen, I suspect you would need a very, very good reason.

Johann, do you have any other plans on how you intend to use any information received apart from family research?

I wish you luck in your continued search. Maybe one of this sites members will have the answer to your questions!



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Goldmohur
WOII
WOII


Number of posts : 93
Age : 76
Localisation : Doncaster
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Gutersloh, Duisburg, Bracht, Rheindahlen. Also Non BAOR, Blackdown, Corsham. Shoeburyness, Ty Croes, Aden, Bicester.
Registration date : 2007-03-10

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   13/5/2016, 17:32

What JPW stated in his post, last sentence, yesterday is accurate. I would suspect the unit that administered locally employed civilians which he refers to has folded up. As the BAOR we old lads think of has been greatly reduced in recent years you may find little by way of records in the Monchen Gladbach area today. I think, if I was in your shoes, I would enquire at BFG in Bielefeld.
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alan8376
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 393
Age : 69
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   13/5/2016, 17:56

Johann, Here is the address of the Bielefeld Office:-Postal Address:

Their role is handling claims regarding Damage, Traffic Accidents etc.

I don't think they will have any records you seek. However, they may give you a contact address.

Military address:

Area Claims Office (North West Europe)-Res

Headquarter British Forces Germany

Catterick Barracks

Bielefeld

BFPO 140



Civilian address:

Area Claims Office (North West Europe)-Res

Headquarter British Forces Germany

Catterick Barracks

Detmolder Strasse 440

33605 Bielefeld


Fax: Mil (94881) 2545

Civ (+49) (0)521 9254 2545



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Johann Heinrich
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2016-05-09

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   18/5/2016, 08:09

Hello and thanks to everyone for their answers and friendly help! I'll now provide a written request according to possible records to my uncle on the BFG in Bielefeld and the Deutsche Rentenversicherung.

Thanks again to all! Regards, Johann

@alan8376:
Maybe this is a misunderstanding: I do not search for any secrets, but what I would like to know is, what was exactly the activity of my uncle's and in which property of the army of the Rhine, he was busy. I'm just very surprised how difficult it is to find for example his work contract from the British army of the Rhine and a personnel file by him, which actually should be the basis of any professional employment?
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alan8376
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 393
Age : 69
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   18/5/2016, 09:00

Johann, Personalakten access for your Onkel if he worked for a German employer in Germany would also not be possible! I think it a EU regulation..



Please keep trying! Maybe someone will remember your uncle.

Please try this forum. Here you will many people who worked in the STORES at
Moenchengladbach.

www.raoc.websitetoolbox.com
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Johann Heinrich
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2016-05-09

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   18/5/2016, 10:07

Hi alan8376, thanks for your note!

As recommended by you I´ve just registered to this further Forum of RAOC. As soon as my user account is unlocked, I will do there a further request for any informations to my uncle Werner Stark.

Thank you and regards, Johann
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JPW
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1025
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   18/5/2016, 10:27

Johann

Good luck with your research, the RAOC website, recommended by Alan, is run by people who have contributed to this site in the past and have a good knowledge of the BAOR way of life.

The other big employer of German Civilians in the Moenchen Gladbach area was the NAAFI Organisation which acted as the equivalent of a civilian Supermarket to the British Servicemen and their families throughout north west Germany. Their central storage depot was in the Viersen/Krefeld area I believe.
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Pborn3
WOI
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Number of posts : 134
Age : 70
Localisation : Porta Westfalica
Cap Badge : RA
Places Served : Oswestry, Paderborn, Barnard Castle, Catterick, NI, Bristol, Cyprus, Munsterlager, NI,Sennelager , NI , Rge Control/STC Sennelager/ GSU Sennelager as Civvy
Registration date : 2013-09-23

PostSubject: DEL Documentation and Records   24/5/2016, 22:38

Contact:  http://bfgnet.de/employment/contacts/lec-support-services-contacts.html

The Civil Labour Org offices are alive and operating and have collected records of civilian staff (DEL  - Germans, MSO, ex-pat Brit veterans, other nationalities) who have been employed in support of BFG since 8 May 45.

There is legal requirement to do so - since pay and tariff agreements are tied up with Federal Finance Ministry,as are German Industrial Health Insurance, German Social Insurances and the NATO Status of Forces Agreement, Supplement and amendments.

Just as with Soldier's Records there is a certain amount  confidentiality in the records - so access is limited to entitled (identifiable) people or organisations.
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alan8376
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 393
Age : 69
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

PostSubject: Re: Searching for personnel records of the BAOR   25/5/2016, 08:52

Contact Details following Station Closure

If your former Labour Support Unit (LSU) has now closed and you would like to contact us for any reason relating to your former employment then please contact LEC Support Services as follows:

Email:BFG-HQ-LECSPSVCS-0GroupMailbox@mod.uk

Telephone:0049(0)521 9254 2733

Postal Address:LEC Support Services, HQ BFG, Catterick Barracks, BFPO 140
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