Having served a total of 14 years in BAOR and being told often that we were up against the Soviet 3 SHOCK ARMY if the Balloon went up, My Brother and I are doing a tour of the old Soviet Garrisons/Camps in June this year(many of which were simply abandoned and are still standing)
The Main areas visited will include:
3 SHOCK ARMY- ALTENGRABOW( last area before leaving)
2 SHOCK ARMY- STENDAL
8 GUARDS ARMY- WEIMAR/NOHRA
1 GUARDS TANK ARMY- DRESDEN
HQ SOVIET FORCES- ZOSSEN WUNSDORF
What the Powers that be didn't tell us was that in one Camp alone(ALTENGRABOW) there were 50000 troops, could it be that they didn't want to frighten the crap out of us too much or were they so confident that we could kick Soviet ass in the Hildesheim Gap and stop the Red Hordes pinching all our HERFY'S and CARLIES,what do you think.
I will have plenty of Photos of the Camps on return.

Bloody Hell, if I had known this in 1952 I would have gone AWOL on my first Blighty leave ...

Len (Ciphers)

50,000, I'd of been scared!

Taxi for 1, zebrugee bitte, schnell machen (sp?)lol

Think most realised if they came across, it would have been armagedon as we would not have stopped them & the button would have been pushed.

Once when on the Mil train to Berlin past the barracks in East Germany.

My memory is of the sheer number of tanks parked in these barracks.

West Berlin, what a weekend!!!

Looking forward to the photo's

Yes, the barracks you passed was the Main 'A' Vehicle Workshops for the whole of the Soviet Forces in E. Germany,the location of this massive Workshop was WUSTERWITZ.

I can relate back to a old farmer where we had harboured up for the night, we set up the Sig Cen right next to his cow brier and I guess we were disturbing his routine. He points to our div sign, The Mailed Fist of 6 Armoured Div and says in passable English, 'you think you are good Tommy .. over there (he points East) are some real soldiers ... you .. (he gives a throat cutting gesture) .. soon kaput' .. looking back he was bang on.

Len (Ciphers)

After reading that,I am rather chuffed that the Cuban crises of 62 was sorted quickly.

Hi all,

How lucky we were they did not attack; we would not have stood a chance.
If I remember BAOR had about 400 to 500 tanks in 1952; how much amunition did we have compared to them?
In 1952 our job was to blow up bridges in Hamburg; based in Osnabruck, we would not have even got half way there.

It did not happen; but not sure why?
Regards
Tony

In the spring of '89 while serving at 23 Base Wksps three of decided to have a weekend in Leipzig and see what the East was like now the wall was down.
We had a good look around the city and on the sunday decided to drive to Colditz,again being duty tourists.
We drove into a town named Grimma on route to Colditz,went down a hill and round a bend straight into a mass of Russian squaddies wandering around the place,passed a barracks that was it seemed full of tanks and hundreds more of Russia's finest.
We did'nt hang around and hightailed it for Colditz.
Not a clue to what formation it was or how long before they went back East.
That was a shock army to us,last thing we expected,on reflection we should have stopped and bought a load of their furry hats as at the time they were flogging off just about anything due to not being paid for months but the lad who's car it was,was a German civvie and he was bricking it so we probably missed out on a good deal.

Grimma was a large Garrison town, when you see what was based there you wouldn't have gone anywhere near the place
UNITS IN GRIMMA 1989
HQ 20 GUARDS MOTOR RIFLE DIV
21 MOTOR RIFLE REGT(142xBMP,40x T80,4x2S6,4xSA13)
67 MOTOR RIFLE REGT(AS ABOVE)
20 AIR DEF REGT
20 TANK BATT.(51x T80)
20 ENG REGT
20 ANTI TANK REGT
20 HELICOPTER SQN
At least you were one of the few to see this whilst still serving, you lucky B****R !!!

I'm sure that you're all correct. Every Ex SUMMER SALES I went on ended with an analysis followed by nuclear release for Lance and 8". What happy days they were!

A few years ago whilst on holiday I met an ex Major who had served in the NVA(East German Army) and over numerous Kenya Canes he told me the Soviets were always Armed, Fuelled and ready to roll at very short notice,were we? they also had specific routes to the IGB which avoided main routes and were mostly specially constructed cross country tracks for Military use only, as we drank more the world famous German sense of humour kicked in and with a silly grin he said that if they were going to attack us it would have 2100hrs on a Friday,I asked why? and he replied sternly that "Half the British Army are pissed and the other half is watching Auf Wiedersehen, Pet" Bloody Hell how right he was !

I can't really speak to the prepardedness of NATO forces, including BAOR, as during both of my father's tours (1959-1962 and 1969-1972) I was, in the first instance, age 5-1/2 to 8 years old and so totally innocent of the politics and, in the second instance, 15-1/2 to 18 years old and more interested in the advantages being a Canadian Army Dependent offered a teenage boy (gasthofs!!!).

However, I do remember when we lived out on the German Economy circa 1960 or so, near a town called Balve, down the Hoennetal from Hemer and Menden, the Canadian authorities, in their infinite wisdom, decided -- since the Berlin Wall had just gone up and everyone was on high alert -- to do a dry run on evacuating the Canadian families in the event the Ruskies did decide to up the ante a bit (i.e. invade). We were, apparently, all informed prior to the exercise. The local German population, however, was not.

So, when several deuce-and-a-halfs pulled up outside the block of apartments the Canadians had leased in Helle-Balve (factory worker housing...they were a set of 4 3-storey block of flats, of which two were all Canadian families) and the soldiers started loading wives and kids, replete with name tags pinned to our chests, into the back of them and pulling out, we were suddenly exposed to the spectacle of desperate Germans running after us trying to climb into the trucks and Canadian soldiers pushing them off. The Germans thought the Russians really were coming.

Of course, 1960 wasn't that distant from the end of WWII, really, and many of the adults had vivid memories of needing to make a run for it as whatever hostile army entered the region.

No doubt the Brigade HQ (4CIMBG) had some explaining to do to local German civilian authorities over that!!

During our second tour, I remember our teachers (who were all civilians teaching Canadian dependents in Canadian-run schools in Hemer, Soest and Werl) going on a weekend junket to Moscow. As dependents, to say nothing of our fathers who were actual serving military, we couldn't even go within x-kilometres of the East German border, let alone into East Germany or -- gasp -- Mother Russia itself!!

My parents did manage to fly into Berlin via Templehof, but of course were only permitted in the British and American sectors and to Checkpoint Charlie. I didn't go as the Berlin trip was a "parents only" trip.

I recall people still talking about it happening in the Hemer PMQ's. When I was first posted over in 64.The folks telling me, said that the German civilians were mainly trying to get their children on the trucks and begging to take them. Apparently the exercise was stopped right there and then with explanations and apologies to the locals. It must have been total fear for the Germans, as the war had only been over for the last 15 years and very fresh still in their memory. If memory serves me right, every family whether in PMQ's or living local were to have a suitcase packed with essentials and ready to go at all times. Mind down south in Lahr this was never told to us.

At the time of the "Iron Curtain" there was propaganda on both sides.We were told that the Soviets would be at the Channel Ports within 48hrs of crossing the border due to their great numbers of "panzers",what we were not told was the numbers of these badly maintained tanks that would break down in the first hundred KMs.I've no doubt the Soviets for their part told their people how soon the Western Allies would arrive in Moscow,knowing well the track mileages of our AFVs,and our 3 day stock of ammo!We were probably no better prepared for a long conflict than our potential enemy.I think the "cold war" was one of the biggest bluffs of modern time!
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Don