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 Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque

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Brian (Berlin-Brian)
SSgt/CSgt
SSgt/CSgt
Brian (Berlin-Brian)

Number of posts : 71
Age : 60
Localisation : Hameln
Registration date : 2007-04-02

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime12/11/2009, 09:45

[img]Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Bild095
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Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Stephen Lock

Number of posts : 937
Age : 66
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime12/11/2009, 19:30

These plaques that Brian has are quite something...

I'm wondering if perhaps our esteemed webmaster might not create a special page or category for these, perhaps with a bit of history or context along with them.

I realize many of the artwork on these plaques utilize heraldic imagery and I would be interested in knowing a bit more about why particular devices were used. For instance, in this Sennelager Training Centre plaque, what is the significance of the Crusader's sword? I assume the red cross upon which it is mounted is the Cross of St. George and the blue....hmmmm....not sure about that, either.
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arbor
Sgt
Sgt


Number of posts : 29
Registration date : 2009-10-10

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime12/11/2009, 22:32

I used to organise the floral display in front of STC .HQ block of this plaque ,if I remember its something to do with an infantry bde rhein army perhaps ? old age again I think
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ciphers
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
ciphers

Number of posts : 973
Age : 86
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime12/11/2009, 23:31

Single sword denotes British Army Troops of the Rhine usually worn by troops or units not having a emblem of their own, like HQ BAOR using crossed swords, 2 Inf Div Crossed Keys, 6 Div Mailed Fist ect.

Photobucket
British Troops Rhine Army
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http://lenpayne.com/Len_Payne/Jim_Chapman.html
Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 67
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime12/11/2009, 23:35

Stephen Lock wrote:
These plaques that Brian has are quite something...

I'm wondering if perhaps our esteemed webmaster might not create a special page or category for these, perhaps with a bit of history or context along with them.

I realize many of the artwork on these plaques utilize heraldic imagery and I would be interested in knowing a bit more about why particular devices were used. For instance, in this Sennelager Training Centre plaque, what is the significance of the Crusader's sword? I assume the red cross upon which it is mounted is the Cross of St. George and the blue....hmmmm....not sure about that, either.

Already in hand Stephen, to the best of my amateur ability.

Paul.
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Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Stephen Lock

Number of posts : 937
Age : 66
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime13/11/2009, 06:33

And an excellent amateur ability it is, too! :-)

Ah, great minds think alike, uh? (and we will just not worry about the second part of that quote....)

Stephen
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Guest
Guest



Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime13/11/2009, 09:55

My humble Avatar has-top left ,the filling funnel and IV (No 4 Petroleum Depot)
Top right, the crest for Kreis Warendorf
Bottom left, the Westphalen White Horse
Bottom right, the Stadt Munster crest
And in the middle?????

Nothing to do with me, dont' know who designed it.
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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 67
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime13/11/2009, 10:07

Chemist wrote:
My humble Avatar has-top left ,the filling funnel and IV (No 4 Petroleum Depot)
Top right, the crest for Kreis Warendorf
Bottom left, the Westphalen White Horse
Bottom right, the Stadt Munster crest
And in the middle?????

Nothing to do with me, dont' know who designed it.

Would it be possible for you to send me an image of the plaque please?

Paul.
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Guest
Guest



Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime13/11/2009, 11:26

Paul wrote:
Chemist wrote:
My humble Avatar has-top left ,the filling funnel and IV (No 4 Petroleum Depot)
Top right, the crest for Kreis Warendorf
Bottom left, the Westphalen White Horse
Bottom right, the Stadt Munster crest
And in the middle?????

Nothing to do with me, dont' know who designed it.

Would it be possible for you to send me an image of the plaque please?

Paul.
Sent but not sure if it worked
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ciphers
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
ciphers

Number of posts : 973
Age : 86
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime13/11/2009, 17:04

Surely that's the Royal Army Ordinance Corps badge ..

Len (Ciphers)
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http://lenpayne.com/Len_Payne/Jim_Chapman.html
Guest
Guest



Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime13/11/2009, 18:18

ciphers wrote:
Surely that's the Royal Army Ordinance Corps badge ..

Len (Ciphers)

Give that man ten silver dollars and a box of Mars candy bars.

(pssst-its Ordnance)Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_razz
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ciphers
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
ciphers

Number of posts : 973
Age : 86
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime13/11/2009, 20:39

Bloody Spell Check ..

Len (Ciphers)
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http://lenpayne.com/Len_Payne/Jim_Chapman.html
Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Stephen Lock

Number of posts : 937
Age : 66
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime14/11/2009, 06:31

It is absolutely the Ordnance Corp insignia...I recognized it right off because of the three cannons surmounted by three cannonballs.
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Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Stephen Lock

Number of posts : 937
Age : 66
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime14/11/2009, 06:47

Something just occurred to me....

The single sword shown on the Sennelager Training plaque is the same -- or very similar to -- the crossed swords on the BAOR shield and I am now wondering if it was quite a conscious choice to use one "BAOR sword" and reverse the field colours from blue cross on red field to red cross on blue field?

This does seem a tad complicated to come up with, however, and so I return to my original thought it is a Crusader's sword -- and whatever the significance is to that, if any -- on the Cross of St. George....
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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 67
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime14/11/2009, 09:39

Stephen Lock wrote:
............This does seem a tad complicated to come up with, however, and so I return to my original thought it is a Crusader's sword -- and whatever the significance is to that, if any -- on the Cross of St. George....

Was there not an "Operation Crusader" at the end of WW2? Could the swords possibly, in some typical military way, have stemmed from there?

Paul.
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ciphers
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
ciphers

Number of posts : 973
Age : 86
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime14/11/2009, 17:24

These two sites will tell you anything related to British Insignia .. the 'swords' in BAOR/Rhine Army are Crusader Swords as suggested.



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mike.comerford/ORDNANCE/41.htm

http://www.petergh.f2s.com/flashes.html

Len (Ciphers)
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http://lenpayne.com/Len_Payne/Jim_Chapman.html
Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Stephen Lock

Number of posts : 937
Age : 66
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime14/11/2009, 19:03

Thanks Len....I found the sites to be very interesting.
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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 67
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime14/11/2009, 23:36

Paul wrote:
Already in hand Stephen, to the best of my amateur ability.
Paul.

Stephen,

http://baor-locations.com/Plaques.aspx

Tell me what you think.

Paul.
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Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Stephen Lock

Number of posts : 937
Age : 66
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque   Sennelager Training Centre BAOR Plaque Icon_minitime15/11/2009, 19:55

Looks good...will reply to you via pm.
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