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 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings

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tommoid
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79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Empty
PostSubject: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime27/4/2010, 17:55

I've discovered a 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings near Aachen. On one of the ambulance coaches the insignia is very clear. The train consists of German built ambulance coaches bearing the Union Jack and Red Cross, generator coaches (generator sets removed) and a couple of ordinary Belgian coaches, presumably for the staff. It is a shame to see this interesting piece of history rotting away! And it is rotting!
Anyone know about this train?
Do you know of anyone who would be interested in this, preferably in preserving some coaches from the train? I could also contact the Imperial War Museum.

I have lots of photos if you're interested but servimg doesn't recognise my email address as being valid.

Cheers: Tom


Last edited by tommoid on 27/4/2010, 18:42; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wanted but failed to add pictures. Servimg register process has failed.)
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime28/4/2010, 20:26

Tom

A quick holding reply

I am a member of a small team of railway enthusiasts researching details of the BAOR Troop trains and related matters.
Copies of your photos will be of interest I am sure to the team

You might be interested to note that one of the Ambulance Coaches was brought back to the UK and was on open air display at the RAMC Training Centre Mychett. However, sadly, no attempt has been made in recent years to maintain this historic vehicle and I believe it is now sheeted from public view whilst a decision is made on its future

Similarly the minute Regular element of the RLC Railway operators organisation is unlikely to be interested in acquiring more coaches (they are split between Marchwood (Southampton and Bicester)

More input when I return home from grandparent duties in 2/3 weeks timei
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime28/4/2010, 22:44

It doesn't seem that I can upload photos here - doesn't like my email address which your reply was correctly notified to. If you give me an email address, I'll send them to you.
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime28/4/2010, 22:45

I've also contacted the Imperial War museum. No reply yet, but that was this afternoon.
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Hardrations
Let Gen
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime29/4/2010, 04:55

Good stuff tom. Get'em by the throat and make them pay attention.
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime30/4/2010, 16:42

Thanks for the pictures Tom

I am also an Editor for the BAOR Locations Web Pages I will check for an entry, update it, or create a new one over the weekend.

Once I have done that I will create a link back to this post as well.
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime30/4/2010, 17:44

Great, thank you.
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graham wright
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime30/4/2010, 20:40

best of luck with the train,hope thr right people make the right decision...always believed that the past must be preserved for the generations that will follow us....graham...
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime30/4/2010, 20:55

So do I! Someone needs to think it's important enough to spend quite a lot of money. The coaches can no doubt be bought for scrap value. The real cost is transport over here by road and restoration. Preferably undercover storage is needed to prevent further weather damage.
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime1/5/2010, 19:55

Tom, I have created a new page for info on the Hosptal Train @

http://baor-locations.com/Hosptal_Train.aspx

study Its work in progress and more details to be added later.

Mike
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Hardrations
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime1/5/2010, 22:00

Thanks Mike. It's sad to see. Hope some one pays attention ot Toms letters.
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime2/5/2010, 12:06

Thanks a lot Mike. I'm glad you were able to use the photos at a larger size, particularly so that the RCT 79 SQN emblem can be seen.
The interior views were taken in one of the coaches at the front end of the train furthest from the entrance to the sidings and nearest to an observation tower. Although the coach is very rusty on the outside the interior is in relatively good untouched condition. The group of three sinks is interesting as is the little solid fuel cooker. Looks inadequate for a situation where all the bunks are occupied by injured soldiers!
Further down the train the paintwork is in better condition but the vandals have been in. The sinks are smashed as are a few windows. To an extent the train has been protected from vandals by the sheer number of carriages. But the weather is doing the job quite efficiently.
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime2/5/2010, 16:06

Hi Tom, I scaled the pictures to fit the page as well as loading time really, and as you say, I think the detail has not been lost to much.

I am looking for some in-service info on the trains, and also if I can find any, some in-service pictures as well.
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime2/5/2010, 19:23

That would be very interesting - as well as any reminiscences from members of the squadron who worked on the train. The mixture of stock in this train could all have been connected or could have been marshalled together at Montzen from different sources. It contains some exhibition coaches as well which have probably come from elsewhere. The generator coaches may well have been used to power the ambulance coaches while train was stationed in sidings supporting the injured troops etc. I'm putting up additional photos on flickr of the rest of the train. I'll post the URL when I've done it. Also putting a link in my flickr pix to your webpage.
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime2/5/2010, 19:41

Hi Hardrations, I'm not connected with the forces. I was just lucky enough to see the RCT 79 SQN emblem on the side of one of the coaches. On the others it's fallen off with the rest of the paintwork and rust. That gave me clue where to look for people who might be interested in preserving the history of this unique train. I have another photo I'll send Mike which shows that the home station was M-Gladbach Rheindahlen and there's a notice in several languages which says, "By special agreement".
I guess, if you could do anything from within to create interest that would be great!
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime2/5/2010, 21:52

I've put more pix on flickr. They can be found here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15523528@N06/sets/72157623852511867/
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JPW
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime3/5/2010, 19:23

Tom

I am a member of a small group of railway enthusiasts researching and recording various aspects of the history of the BAOR troop trains from 1945 onwards. One of our members spent many years based at Rheindahlen with the responsibility for the day to day maintenace of the 79 Sqn rolling stock I am sure he will be able to give an authoritive answer to your queries in due course. Unfortunately I am currently based with one of my sons and will not be returning home for another month so cannot access my own computer with its address book

At first glance the rolling stock at Montzen looks like a mix of vehicles and I dont think the Belgian coaches have any connection with the BAOR Ambulance Trains. Intrigued by the two white coaches, were they part of the ex BAOR stock?

There were separate Kitchen Dining cars similar to those on the the British Berliner which could provide hot food and refreshments for both patients and nursing staff. The solid fuel stoves you photograhed were probably provided to give an emergency source of heat in the event of a power failure on the electric or diesel locomotive

Bob G will probably an epic journey from Dunkirk to Northern Italy in the late 70s when a UK based Brigade travelled by troop train to a NATO FTX in the Aviano area. Our journey was punctuated by a series of emergency stops due to overheating axle boxes on the dining car (one of the 79 Sqn BAOR War Maintence Reserve)

Subsequent enquiries revealed that the vehicle was emarked for use on one of the Ambulance trains on a projected journey from the Minden area to the emergency airheads in the Bruggen/Laarbruch/ Wildenrath area at a maximum speed of 30 miles in the hour should WW3 ever have broken out. Our journey was 700 miles with a potential speed of 60 mph plus!!
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime3/5/2010, 22:12

JPW, I am looking at publishing a short history on 79 Railway Squadron, The Ambulance Trains & The Berliner on the BAOR-Locations Web Site, and I am looking for info & pictures to support this.

The Ambulance Trains were of course manned by RAMC & QARANC when in use, and servised and operated by the RCT as were the 'Field Ambulances in BAOR.

79 Railway Squadron is now part of 17 Port & Maritime Regiment RLC and based at Matchwood Military Port nr Southampton, and I have written to the Adjutant for info, as well as the RLC Museum at Deepcut which now holds the RCT Archive.
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime3/5/2010, 22:28

From my own memory:

BAOR Ambulance Trains were made up of leased Bundersbahn Carriages painted NATO Green with White Roofs. All Carriages had Union Jacks painted on sides, with the 'Ambulance Cars' also having Red Crosses on White.

They were made up of a number of 'Ambulance Cars' with a 'Generator Car', Restaurant Car' with Kitchen, and a number of 'Sleeping Cars' for Nursing Staff. An 'Ambulance Train' would be made up of between 10 to 14 Carriages with a 'Break Van' at the rear which also carried the guard.

The Coal Boiler and Carriage Cooker provided hot water & heating as well as drinks for the 'Ambulance Car' should it be detached from the train.

A number of 'Ambulance Cars' were used during the First Gulf War as Transit accommodation, with the Red Crosses painted out.
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tommoid
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime4/5/2010, 18:57

Hi JPW, I hope you've seen Mike's excellent locations webpage which contain some of my photos http://baor-locations.com/Hosptal_Train.aspx. The link to my other photos on flickr is given in a previous post above. The white coaches are just old exhibition coaches to do with insurnace companies or something, and have nothing to do with the ambulance train. The SNCB may just be tidying up by marshalling all this rusty old stock together before scrapping it!
While I was looking on flickr for more photos from Montzen (others have more interest in the line of old diesels on another track) I noticed that last August there were two rakes of these ambulance trains - and now one of them has gone - I presume for scrapping?
Are there photos of the train when it was operational? We might be able to recognise other stock like the generator cars which are now rotting at Montzen. I didn't see any non-ambulance type sleeping cars.

PS. You are free to use my photos as you wish. If you use them in your book, a free copy would be mighty fine.
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime4/5/2010, 23:02

sunny I have recieved the following reply on ARRSE

Quote :
I was with 332 Ambulance Train RAMC(v) 86-87 prior to joining regs, have a few pics of both TA (RAMC, QARANC) personnel and some 79 Rwy Sqn personnel plus pics of the trains "in action" as it were, carrying casualties during exercises.

Unfortunately at the moment I've got no internet at home so you'll have to wait til I'm back on the net before I can post them up.

I couldn't tell you how many carriages, etc, varied each time out. The orderly office was in the baggage carriage, the dining carriage looked like something off the Orient Express, passenger carriages were stripped of seats and there were poles with brackets to hold the stretchers. Staff accommodation was in first class carriages that looked like the ones used on the Hogwarts Express the backs of the seats could be raised up so that you ended up with three bunks either side of the compartment. I usually ended up on the top bunk which was great fun until some joker slammed the brakes on

After spending a week on the train, walking on terra firma was a lot harder than you remembered!

If you are on Facebook, there is a 79 Railway Squadron group, might be worth putting a message on there.

I have PM'd her (she is ex TA & Regular QARANC) with link to pictures.

Note - 332 Ambulance Train RAMC (V) is one of several TA units that manned the Ambulance Trains. 79 Railway Sqn only operated & maintained them.
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Ian-redcap70
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime5/5/2010, 02:29

As an historical railways enthusiast, I wonder if it would be possible to shift this rolling stock to the Military Museum at Beverley, Yorks?

Mind you from the pictures it looks as if it is in very poor condition.
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime5/5/2010, 10:13

The Museum of Army Transport at Beverley has closed. They used to have an Ambulance Car which I believe is now at the Army Medical Museum at Aldershot (also in a poor state, and stored outside)

I have e-mailed details to them as well as the National Railway Museum at York. I have seen carrages in a worst state restored!
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime5/5/2010, 16:07

Tom, Mike

Thank you for your latest informative input which is helping to build up the detail of the BAOR ambulance trains

I write as the author of a number of the contributions to be found on the subject of the BAOR Troop Trains, which were drafted iin the early days of the site, to be found off the Home Page in the Section entitled BAOR Transport which included pieces on the Troop Trains, the British Berliner and the School Trains.

The Study Group who I am a member of approached both the Sappers at Chatham and the RCT at Deepcut for information but it would appear that there is very little relevent to our particular interest available in either of their archives (some material may have been donated to the ill fated now closed private venture Museum of Army Transport at Beverley but it's current whereabouts is unknown). Similarly the Imperial War Museum at Duxford is believed to hold some material (including photos) but they have not been properly catalogued yet and are not available to the general public.

Tthe Group is fortunate to have amongst its members two individuals who served in Berlin in the late 40s, an American enthusiast carrying out research into the equivalent US military railway history as well as access to other semi official sources or private individuals who provided information or documents not readily available to the general public. This provided the basis of my contributions (the BAOR Troop Train article needs a serious rewrite to correct a couple of errors and add addition information)

I intend to get agreement from the individuals concerned to post certain photos, eg the 1950s NAAFI Buffet Cars, which because they sold Duty Free Goods (cigarettees, beer) were banned from crossing into Holland.

Tom,
I am sure any photos of the Ambulance Trains you can locate will be widely welcomed especially if they include shots of the early rolling stock replaced in the 1970s by the more modern ambulance coaches you found at Montzen
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PostSubject: Re: 79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings   79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings Icon_minitime5/5/2010, 18:40

I could have a look around in the usual places. I need to peer at my photos for any makers plates but I would put this style of coach at late 1940s - 1950s. After this they were moving from the concertina type gangway connection to the rubber cylinder type they still use today in many countries.
Although these coaches look very rusty, the German quality of build is very good. Most of it is surface rust which could sand off. They are all steel construction so repairs can be made with a welding torch. (Rotten timber framed coaches are a real problem!) The task of restoring a 60ft 40ton coach isn't to be underestimated though. It needs a dedicated team, the right tools and materials, and preferably somewhere undercover in order to move it along to a gleaming fully restored showpiece. Otherwise it turns into an albatross for all concerned and the result is the rotting ambulance car at Aldershot. Such abandoned projects can be found everywhere.
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