Six Months Extra

Handyman,
The only time I was attached to the Gunners they were all surveyors, and a good bunch of lads. Needless to say it was a very small unit originally titled CL 89 Drone Trials Troop, later to be called the Midge Drone. We formed at Larkhill in late 1963 and comprised 6 RA (including Tp Comd), 4 REME, 1 RAOC Photographer and 1 Capt Int Corps. In Jan 64 we moved to Montreal via Halifax, courtesy of Cunard, where we met up with the Canadian half of the troop. After equipment trg we moved to Yuma, Arizona to complete contractor and engineering trials. Spring 67 we moved back to Canada to Fort Shilo, Manitoba, to complete user and cold weather trials, returning to Larkhill in Dec 67. This was one of the highlights of my career.

Bob

Hardrations wrote:

Surveyors.... I remember one time in Rheinselen the surveyors being used to properly aligne the tents to the BSM's satisfaction. We can't have been the only Artillery unit in BAOR to pull that trick off. Also Survey Section were a good party lot.

SOPs for a Gunner unit at Rheinselen, Hardrations - it was afforded the same priority as Recce Transport for Hamburg!!

jim wrote:

Can anyone clarify for me what the Gunner Surveyors did? I find it hard to believe that they would be surveying during the heat of battle. Or does it mean something totally different in gunnery terms.

Well Jim,

I'm sure you can see now why I left it to Handyman to explain !

That's a great memory you've got there Handyman. My compliments Sir !

Shelldrake wrote:

Handyman, it was a lot simpler in a Msl Bty. The Survey chappie would drive in to a field, hammer a tent peg, the top of which had been painted red, into the ground and drive off. We would then come along in the Launcher, cold on account of only having one Parka between six, and park up in a nearby wood. Upon receiving the command "Fire Mission" we would pretend to go through the rigmarole "Fit Fins, signaller starts two stopwatches etc" and report "Fired" then drive on to the next location without putting ourselves out too much! Woops, I think that I might have let the cat out of the bag, Brum?

I don't know WHAT you buggers on the Launcher sections were doing mate, we were far too busy in the command post.

God those Yanks were a pain. That inspection we used to have (was it Fittness For Role ?) And those lovely Site Guards, no wonder our morale was so low.

[b]Thanks for the compliment Brum. We used to have to carry out Skill at Arms tests every year in order to prove that we were still worth being paid our Trade pay. It took me 3 years to attain my B1 and to be allowed to wear the Laurel leaves encircling a brass "B". I still have some of the various technical books and computation papers that we used to have to fill in. If we could have the simple Sat-navs that we have these days, our work would have been so much easier. Mind you, I am sure the RSM would have found us more work to have done to fill in all of the extra time we would have had.

I mentioned some of the improvisations and gimmicks that we used to employ to make survey easier. Working at night was always a problem, but we had a survey Sgt who was a very clever chap. Most of our survey was carried out using what was called a Parallel Traverse. This meant having two instruments measuring the same rounds of angles, but being as far apart in width as the tracks or fire-breaks in the woods would allow. In reality, each instrument would be calculating its own co-ordinates for the spot on the ground occupied by the theodolite. After two or three seperate legs had been computed, the next survey station would be a single one.

Measuring the distance between these stations was an important part of working out the co-ordinates and measuring at night was again a problem. Our Sgt came up with the idea of scounging as many tin cans as he could from the cook house and he would cut a narrow 1/4" slit in opposite sides of these cans and place a lighting unit inside worked from a 12 volt battery. Half of the cans would have a white light inside and the other half would have a red light. The cans with a white light would be placed on the left hand side stations, and the red ones on the right.

We had a distance measuring instrument called a "Range finder" This was tube 1 metre in width with a set of eyepieces in the centre and on the opposite side set at each end was the two viewing windows. Through the eyepieces you saw a split image, the bottom half was a normal image but the top one was upside down. You had to align these two images so that they lined up and then your booker flipped open a panel and could read of the distance in metres. You had to take ten of these reading and then you took the average of the ten and accepted that as final.

I was doing the range finding one dark night and I had spotted the red light of the right hand or "Flag" station as it was called. I began to line up the two red images and said to my booker,"Read". He read the range as 600 meters which checked with my reading so I began to carry out my second line up of the two red images. "Read" i said, 620 metres, "Check". I began to line up again and noticed that in my viewfinder, the range was increasing to almost 700 metres which was strange, as normally the variation would have been only a few metres so I stepped away from the range-finder, picked up my binoculars and then I realised that I had been range-finding on the red rear light of a vehicle moving off down the track away from us.

Was my face Red. Had to wait until it had cleared out of sight and then start the measuring all over again. Of course my booker being a great mate, kept his mouth shut. Dont you believe it, the whole survey section knew of my blooper by first light.

You learn by your mistakes.

Cheers.

Didn't the old TARA end up being called a Surveyor ?

Most of the things you've been so fluently telling us about are alien to me.

I take it you were Regimental Survey, that ran around doing wondrous things before we, in the dust cloud arrived !

Yes, hats off Handyman, apart from lining up the 160lbs at Reinsehlen it was all alien to me as well. Just to go off on a Tangent (geddit?) again can anyone remember the old Thuinderboxes and state of the art Showers at Reinsehlen?

[b]Hi Shelldrake, I will excuse your going off at a tangent on this occasion,but just to refresh your memory,the sine of the angle is the opposite over the hypotenuse but the tangent of the angle is the opposite over the adjacent. I bet thats stumped you?????

Yes I remember the old Thunder-boxes and those bloody showers we use to be taken to when we were on excercise , As surveyors we used to have to dig those latrines on excercise, line the hole with oiled sacking then stick the flat board with 7 or 8 holes in over the open hole. Then the " piece de resistance " the sqiuare box with the lid, known throughout the services as "The Thunderbox ". I rest my case !!!!!.

[quote="handyman"][b]Hi Shelldrake, I will excuse your going off at a tangent on this occasion,but just to refresh your memory,the sine of the angle is the opposite over the hypotenuse but the tangent of the angle is the opposite over the adjacent. I bet thats stumped you?????

I knew that!!

[b] Sorry Brum. I missed your posting trying to get one over on Shelldrake, didn't work though, clever dicky. Yes the old TARA, ( Technical Assistant Royal Artillery) was the posh title for the humble surveyor. And you were correct, we did do wonderous magical things with Trigonometry, but sometimes we had to wait ages for the dust to clear before we could see to survey.
I could tell you about carrying out star traverses or even star computations coupled with Siderial hour angles, but that would probably put you all to sleep, that is if you are not already asleep
My Army service was some of the best days of my life, great comrades, great friendships, but for some of my mates,gone from this world far too soon!. I left a very good friend lying in Silent Valley in Aden. I miss him most in the quiet times.

I seem to remember that the trade of Regimental Surveyor was discontinued in the late 60s, or is my memory failing (again)?

Shelldrake wrote:

Yes, hats off Handyman, apart from lining up the 160lbs at Reinsehlen it was all alien to me as well. Just to go off on a Tangent (geddit?) again can anyone remember the old Thuinderboxes and state of the art Showers at Reinsehlen?

Running through the wind and rain back to the dubious shelter of a tent after a cold shave in those Reinsehlen ablutions. Who could forget ?

I remember Reinsehlen at it's bleakest when we rolled in off the ranges to find that the regiment who'd been sharing the place with us had gone.
Some of their drunken loonies had smashed up the little village of Schneverdingen so the whole mob was ordered back out onto the ranges. A few ragged tents were all that was left, blowing in that cold, wet wind that blew across the place.

A bit like today's weather actually !

Did you know that there was a large commercial bakery in Schneverdingen . Every now and then over here I find some German cookies baked there. I still have a glass beer stein I bought there. Absolutley nothing fancy about it, but it does bring memories back for me. Now used as a pencil holder. Haven't seen it since we moved, hope it hasn't gone astray. We to had problems in Schneverdingen with some of our lads. Had an I.D. parade but no guilty party found from our unit.

[b]Shelldrake, I am not too sure when they discontinued the role of Regimental surveyor, but I was demobbed in Feb 1968 and we still had survey party even then. We had a few extra items of survey kit provided in the mid to late 60s. We had a more accurate device for measuring distances,and with this instrument you did not have to be able to see the other station, it would operate in mist,haze and even rain showers. It was called a Tellurometer and it measured distances by the use of radio waves. The other item that we got was a new type of Theodolite that was accurate down to one second of arc.

I will make some enquiries about when Survey parties were discontinued, but I think that it would only be done once GPS sytems were evaluated and proven to be of the accuracy that Artillery units would need to bring fire down on to a target.

Regarding the smashing up of Schneverdingen, it was a Jock regiment that caused the mayhem and if I remeber correctly they had the title of "Poison Dwarfs". We were on excercise at the time, but were ordered not to enter or go anywhere near to Schneverdingen.

Sounds like the Cameronians..They did run wild in the early 60s resulted in ORs having to book in and out of camp.And thet were nicknamed the poisoned dwarfs

[b] Yes Gordon, I am sure you are correct. The Cameronians does ring a distant bell. As I said, I was a member of 1st Regiment Royal Horse Artillery and we were the only regiment in 1969-60 who were allowed to be out of camp from after duties in the evening until first parade next morning. We got on well with the local population of Hildesheim, we provided our own Town patrol which liased with the Polizei and we were able to make sure that no problems were caused by our lads. Any one that trangressed would lose the privilege of having what was known as a 24 hour pass, usually for 14 days and be "Confined to barracks"

I must bring this one to a halt gents.

The incident I was on about involved a Gunner unit that disgraced themselves in Schneverdingen.

I think the Cameronians had enough on their plates around that time, ruining their reputation in Hameln or Lemgo. I think the name "Poison Dwarves" came from a translation of the name the German press gave them.
Last I heard we ( the British) were called something like "Der Affen von der Insel".(Die, Der, Das).

One of my sons lives in Hong Kong and he was ashamed of a Jock regiment that ruined their reputation there, just before The Handover.

I'm offended by such stuff, but there again I'm too patriotic for my own good.

I think that the confusion is with "A Jock Regiment", from my recollection the Regiment involved at Schneverdingen was 40 Regt RA - "The Highland Gunners" and the Cameronians, who were nicknamed "The Poison Dwarves" by the population of Minden, were responsible for a bit of trouble around that area in the 60s -as a result of the Army Review, they were disbanded in the early 70s, a few of the guys arriving at 24 Msl Regt. Maybe someone from 40 Regt or the Cameronians reading this could enlighten us?

Shelldrake wrote:

I think that the confusion is with "A Jock Regiment", from my recollection the Regiment involved at Schneverdingen was 40 Regt RA - "The Highland Gunners" and the Cameronians, who were nicknamed "The Poison Dwarves" by the population of Minden, were responsible for a bit of trouble around that area in the 60s -as a result of the Army Review, they were disbanded in the early 70s, a few of the guys arriving at 24 Msl Regt. Maybe someone from 40 Regt or the Cameronians reading this could enlighten us?

The old memory's not up to it these days, I thought the Regt involved had a "4" in it's title, (hence me asking if it was 42 by the way).

I think I'll have to stand down, (there's another one look !) on this one.

You are right Shelldrake,it was Minden where the Cameronians ran wild

Not to stire the stick about to much, but weren't the Scots Guards posted out of Iserlohn at the request of the Burgemeister some time in the 60's? That was the rumour going about then.

Hope I'm not stepping on some ones toes with this one.

Breaking radio silence

Hardrations...2nd Battalion Scots Guards arrived Feb 67 and moved to Waterloo Barracks Münster Mar 68 with the rest of 4 Gds Bde so guess an "urban myth"

Brum...we are still "Inselaffen" according to some Germans

Cheers
Steve...posted from Iserlohn to Lower Saxony next week
http://britisharmyiniserlohn.blogspot.com

steve wrote:

Breaking radio silence

Brum...we are still "Inselaffen" according to some Germans

Cheers
Steve...posted from Iserlohn to Lower Saxony next week
http://britisharmyiniserlohn.blogspot.com

Well . . . you can see why they'd think that !

(Are you going to miss Iserlohn, Steve ?)

Brum...we both know Iserlohn/Hemer very well and the Knicker Factory in Lurgan...have enjoyed your posts...I had forgotten about the "Flying Coffins" over the Deilinghofen training area...will not miss Iserlohn but will still have an interest in the place BUT back to Lower Saxony my first posting in the late 60s from boy service...1 Div Verden-Aller...when life was pretty good
Cheers
Steve - back on line soon with loads of historical stuff

We used to get our mail from Verden when we were stationed in Nienburg, early 60's.

The mail truck used to be an Austin 1 tonner. When my mate was driving it I'd go along and get a "cabby". (It's how I learned to drive !).

Good luck with the move Steve.