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what about when you had tea in mess tins, the brasso floated to the top, it did narf taste orrible too , ginger

Thanks men for the pics of mess tins, brings back memories. Corned Beef infused with Brasso, I like it.

Queries of a general nature ............. Kit relevant, Not BAOR Specific.

1. It shames me to admit that, as an ex-Gunner, I've not been able to find an answer to why some Artillery pieces are classified by calibre ( 3.7" HAA, 40 mm Lt AA, 5.5" Medium, etc.) others are named by weight of projectile ( 25 pdr. Gun How, 6 pdr. AT, 17 pdr AT, etc).

What's the logic ? It's not that some have fixed ammunition & others have separate charges because all those quoted above are a mixture in either category. Nor can shell weight be the reason. Both 2 pdr Pom Pom & 2 pdr. AT were different pieces, & had different ammo, but that's early WW2 years.

2. Everybody remembers the WS 19, I bet. I came across something very similar when HF kit was no longer fitted into every Land Rover & Sqn.CP. This thing looked like a tarted up 19 set, dials & things were similarly placed, but it was more colourful. Russian stuff had disappeared, there were red & blue bits around, maybe, jack plug points or switch bases.

Got an idea it was made by Pye & must have been HF because one of the Sigs was getting orgasmic at the prospect of trying to get skywave contact with a distant out station after a Ferret was taken on charge with most of a 19 set in place.......( Funny lot, Sigs.)

Don't know why we had it unless it was for a rear link that we never used...........What was it?

WS19 Mk 2 or 3

cartav wrote:

Queries of a general nature ............. Kit relevant, Not BAOR Specific.

1. It shames me to admit that, as an ex-Gunner, I've not been able to find an answer to why some Artillery pieces are classified by calibre ( 3.7" HAA, 40 mm Lt AA, 5.5" Medium, etc.) others are named by weight of projectile ( 25 pdr. Gun How, 6 pdr. AT, 17 pdr AT, etc).

What's the logic ? It's not that some have fixed ammunition & others have separate charges because all those quoted above are a mixture in either category. Nor can shell weight be the reason. Both 2 pdr Pom Pom & 2 pdr. AT were different pieces, & had different ammo, but that's early WW2 years.

2. Everybody remembers the WS 19, I bet. I came across something very similar when HF kit was no longer fitted into every Land Rover & Sqn.CP. This thing looked like a tarted up 19 set, dials & things were similarly placed, but it was more colourful. Russian stuff had disappeared, there were red & blue bits around, maybe, jack plug points or switch bases.

Got an idea it was made by Pye & must have been HF because one of the Sigs was getting orgasmic at the prospect of trying to get skywave contact with a distant out station after a Ferret was taken on charge with most of a 19 set in place.......( Funny lot, Sigs.)

Don't know why we had it unless it was for a rear link that we never used...........What was it?

Being a member of the corps, I can safely state that it was probably a radio!

cartav wrote:

Queries of a general nature ............. Kit relevant, Not BAOR Specific.

1. It shames me to admit that, as an ex-Gunner, I've not been able to find an answer to why some Artillery pieces are classified by calibre ( 3.7" HAA, 40 mm Lt AA, 5.5" Medium, etc.) others are named by weight of projectile ( 25 pdr. Gun How, 6 pdr. AT, 17 pdr AT, etc).

What's the logic ? It's not that some have fixed ammunition & others have separate charges because all those quoted above are a mixture in either category. Nor can shell weight be the reason. Both 2 pdr Pom Pom & 2 pdr. AT were different pieces, & had different ammo, but that's early WW2 years.

2. Everybody remembers the WS 19, I bet. I came across something very similar when HF kit was no longer fitted into every Land Rover & Sqn.CP. This thing looked like a tarted up 19 set, dials & things were similarly placed, but it was more colourful. Russian stuff had disappeared, there were red & blue bits around, maybe, jack plug points or switch bases.

Got an idea it was made by Pye & must have been HF because one of the Sigs was getting orgasmic at the prospect of trying to get skywave contact with a distant out station after a Ferret was taken on charge with most of a 19 set in place.......( Funny lot, Sigs.)

Don't know why we had it unless it was for a rear link that we never used...........What was it?

I've been looking in "The Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Artillery" by Ian V Hogg but there's no answer to the shot weight/calibre mystery to be found in there.
I reckon a letter to the Firepower museum at Woolwich might be in order.

Your description of the mystery radio puts me in mind of a set we used to have and called "the 19 Hi Power". I'm pretty sure we used it to talk to the Air OP but then again, as you said, it may have been for Rear Link.

I have a picture of said set mounted in our BC's Champ, can't imagine him needing to have a link back to brigade though.

Any road up, I'll PM you with pic. See what you think.

REF. arty nomenclature & funny transceivers....k


GORDON........ Thanks ! Not like the Army to think of something so simple & logical.

TEABAG......... Maybe.... But don't think so. This bit of kit was always called a Wireless Set.

BRUM............ Aha! Another baffled ten mile sniper ! Strange how these things are accepted
without question. Or answer, by the look of it.

Sent one of my offspring into what remains of Woolwich Bks when he was in
area with the same question . He went in the museum but couldn't find
anyone able to come up with an answer.

Quote :

This bit of kit was always called a Wireless Set.

That`s because it ddn`t need wires to transmit over..

Radio was the new posh word.


David Take a look here,you may be able to identify said raidio

http://www.royalsignals.org.uk/photos/photos.htm

Thanks Gordon......... 40 odd years is a long time back, but I think you could be right in suggesting it was an upgraded WS 19. I remember the front panel was a light grey & there were a couple or so socket points in red, blue or yellow. Only doubt in my mind is that the Sigs. didn't have a clue about the 19, or anything like it, which came with our Ferret, so much so that I stuck my nose in & tried to remember back 15 years.

I vaguely recalled the dial which showed LT, HT, readings, etc. & leaned in the Ferret whilst one lad went through the procedure. Sig. moved the switch to HT, no reading. "Could be the fuse", I said "......wiggle it about". Lad did as he was told, but kept the pressel switch thumbed down. Success! The fuse wire was exposed under his finger, he was part ejected through the top hatch, nearly taking me with him. They didn't seek my advice again............

You mentioned "wire", that jogged a chord in the memory........ When our sigs in 32 Bty were line laying, they kept an eye out for Dutch cable. The Dutch equivalent of our stiff stuff in black insulation, was copper wire in a blue/green plastic. No matter where we were, Dutch cable was harvested as a prized asset, it was snipped off & wound in for future Brit use. I bet the Germans were held responsible..

Try this for size:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

Paid a visit to Chicksands last week end on display was some body armour
quite heavy the guys in theatre have my admiration with what they carry and the heat they operate in

Thanks Mike 2817......... Good thing I'd not had those lunch time thirst quenchers before trying to assimilate it and I've still got questions...........

It looks like two guns with different length projectiles could both fire , say, 100 lb. shot. In which case, the one with the shorter length projectile would be larger in calibre. More confusion for the QM who's ordering ammunition unless there's some additional classifying to determine which alternative is required. And with Murphy prophesying about things going wrong, and the military being noted for some crucially bad cock ups, different classification methods for weapons reduced the chances of errors.

Does it happen that two guns of different classification fire the same rounds? Maybe not. Checking back to WW2, & AFV main armament, Comet & Firefly Sherman both had 17pdr.s, though, at a calibre of nominally 75mm., the bore of the gun is similar to the standard, last model Cromwells, whose shorter gun was classified as 75mm, and presumably was chambered for a cartridge different from the 17 pdr.

So that's it then. Either a weight of shot, or a calibre, was specified to distinguish between weapons which were different beasts, but had some, but not totally, similar characteristics.............I think !

Well the 17 Pounder was widely used cartav.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17_pounder#77_mm_HV

Ammunition during WWII and well into the 60's had the long description on the front of the case in Yellow Paint, and a Short description on the top in Large White Letters.

17 Pounder Anti-Tank was marked..... 17 PDR AT

17 Pounder Tank Ammunition was marked..... 17 PDR OQF (Ordnance Quick Firing)
as used by Sherman FF

Cromwell Tank was marked.... 75mm QF [The American designation]

and Comet Ammo.....77 HV [77mm High Velocity]
(Still 75mm but so marked to aviod confusion)

Prototype Centurion Tanks also used the 17 Pounder before up-rating to the 20 Pounder (84mm) and later 105mm Tank Gun.

These 'Short Designations' would be followed by HE, AP or SMK etc!

The 17 Pdr/75mm was also used in a series of Armoured Cars and re-designated as 76mm Armoured Car and was last used in the Saladin and also the F101 Scorpion Tank.
[Note the yet again minor change in millimetre calibre]

Thanks Mike 2817 ! It was hell in the trenches but I bet it could be worse back in the stores
trying to get your head round that lot.......... and that's just for a small selection fireworks.

'Lo again Mike 2817............ I was baffled by numbers, thrown by expertise, then I began to think more carefully. It's Guns, we're talking (or I am!) not what goes up the back end &,hopefully ,comes out the muzzle.

I can see a 17pdr. AT will want solid shot, it's equally advantageous for a 17pdr. in a Firefly Sherman, say, to be able to load HE or canister if there was such a thing, but are both these guns, with the same 17pdr. name, basically the same breach, barrel & firing mechanism whether mounted on wheeled carriage or in the mantlet on the turret of an AFV ? If that's a "Yes !" then that clears up doubts about reasons for either weight of shot or calibre nomenclature.

But thanks for your detailed response, and sorry to persist ! And no ! Strange for a Sunday, but I've not had a pint today ! ........ Yet !

No, the guns did not use the same loads or indeed cartridge size, which is why Ordnance went to great length to ID each type.

If you were an Infantryman with a 17 Pdr AT Gun, you did not want to end up with 17 Pdr QF. The Div/Bde Combat Supplies (RASC & RAOC) would push 17 PDR AT up to you, and 17 PDR OQF to the tankies. Your QM would do the final check. It sounds a complicated meathod but it worked.

Other Box Top Marks included.

303 BDR = .303" Ball Clips of 5 in Bandoleer for Rifle
303 CTN = .303" Ball in Cartons (No Clips) for Rifle, Lewis MG, Bren Gun
303 TCR = .303" Tracer in Carton for Lewis MG & Bren Gun
303 BELT = .303" Ball in Canvas Belt for Vickers MMG
303 4B1T = .303" 4 Ball/1 Tracer in Belt for Vickers MMG
9MM BALL = 9mm Ball for Sten Gun or Browning Pistol
9MM BALL S 9mm for Sten Gun Only (Captured German Stock)
792 BESA = 7.92mm Besa in Metal Links for Tanks
GREN 36 HE = No 36 Grenade HE
GREN 80 WP SMK = Grenade No 80 White Phosphorus Smoke

Each unit had a set allocation of ammunition that was pushed forward during the night to replen its stocks and each nature was coded. A unit need not ask for it, but could radio a code for extra by type.

A unit knew which box top codes it needed and the system worked well.

Example of .303" Packing Case with Front & Top Markings -


This being a Box H50 containing 2 x Wooden Inners H51 with Tin Plate Liner H52 for Tropical Use.
Front marks say its 576 Mk7 Cordite Ball Cartridges which was the norm for the Enfield Rifle
(Nitrocellulose filled cartridges were marked 7z or 8z and were normally belted for Vickers MG)
Produced at Radway Green on the 15/09/54 and is a split batch (B)
(Ammunition Work Dates & Batches are not accounted for at the front, but may be needed to re-call a faulty batch)

All you needed to know was its .303 Ball!

In Combat Supplies in the late 70's our main commodities were:
(Combat Supplies held no Drill, Training or Practice Ammuntion)
[But as a BAOR Asset did produce & store Simmulated Ammunition (SIMMO)]

Artillary
8" Howitzer
175mm Howitzer
5.5" Gun (Obsolescent but Backloading to 3BAD)
155mm Howitzer
105mm Field Gun
40/70mm Anti Aircraft Gun (Obsolescent but Backloading to 3BAD)
Blowpipe Anti Aircraft Missle
Rapier Anti Aircraft Missle
Lance Missle (Just coming into service)

Armoured
120mm Tank Gun (Chieftain Tank)
76mm Armoured Car (Scorpion Tank)
30mm RARDEN Gun (Scimitar Tank & Fox Armoured Car)
'Smoke Grenades'

Enginners
165mm Demolition Gun
'Anti Personel Mines'
Mk 7 AT Mines (Obsolescent but Backloading to 3BAD)
Bar Mines
Demolition Charges
Bluk Explosives
Bangalore Torpedo's
Giant & Baby Vipers

Infantry
120mm BAT with 50" Spoting Gun
84mm Anti Tank (Charlie G)
66mm LAW
MILAN AT
2" (51mm) Morter
3" Morter (Obsolescent but still used by TA)
81mm Morter
'Hand Grenades'
'Smoke Grenades'

Air
SS1 ATM (Gazelle) (Obsolescent but not backloaded till early 80's)
TOW (Lynx)

Small Arms
.22" (Used in Captive Bolt Gun)
.38" Revolver (Obsolescent but still used by TA)
9mm
7.62mm
.30" MG (Ferret Scout Cars)
50" MG (Obsolescent)
Shot Gun Cartridges

Plus dozens of miscellaneous items reserved for specail use etc...

Thanks again Mike 2817.........Speechless here, mouth opens, all that comes out is "Oh !...."

I have a mate who pounded a typewriter in some sheltered RAOC depot for his 2 years of NS. He never dug a slit trench, never kipped wrapped up in a wet poncho, never did an early 0200 --- 0400 hrs stag at the main gate on a frosty January guard. But we shall treat him with more respect from now on, now we consider what disaster could have occurred if one finger had slipped on to the wrong key and jungle greens could have ended up in Norway, or Parkas had been dispatched to lads fighting the Mau Mau. (It was a long time ago).

However, at this juncture, I am reminded of an old song by Harry Belafonte, " There's a Hole
in my Bucket ". For the ill-informed followers of unintelligible lyrics of later years, I should explain that it's about Henry, who wants a quiet life, & his wife, Liza, who pesters him to get off his backside & mend their bucket. By careful manipulation of Liza's instructions of how it might be done, Henry turns it around to where he needs a sound bucket before he can start.

The same here. Unless I have misunderstood, we are back to square one, where, two items of weaponry have the same basic name, eg.-- 17 pdrs. Others have a similar bore, but are classified by a different system, the diameter of the barrel. This seems to be a peculiarity adopted only by the UK, the basis for which has its origin in historical terminology going back to when shot was spherical & was loaded up the front end. It's one way, one which other armies have forsaken, perhaps, for suffixes & prefixes to the 17pdr. bit to distinguish between similar, but not identical, bits of kit.

Having come to this conclusion (or Confusion ! ) maybe this is a good place to draw a line under this topic and say there is no real reason that we used weight of shot, or calibre to distinguish between bits of artillery hardware. There was a need to differentiate, and this way was ours.

Mike 2817, you're a genius, a Memory Master. Hope you can remember where you put your specs !

The David Pump. It was said that a young infantry Louie name David came across some drawings in Germany at the end of the last war and turned them over to REME. As a result the David Fuel Feed pump was put into production and used on many army vehicleS. What has become of the David Pump, and why has it never interest the civvy manufacturers?

Checked David Pump on Google............. a bit obscure there, but one or two inserts tell that something approaching that name are being made in China........... where else ?

This was my introduction to army kit and I’m sure we all followed a similar pattern.

Silky

THE INNER SANCTUM

Entering the QM’s department for the first time, I stood in awe at the length of the counter; it must have measured at least seventy-five feet (twenty three metres). Regularly spaced along the counter were small piles of clothing and kit. I was told to stand at the end of the counter with my arms outstretched in front of me.
At the first station, the following items were placed upon my outstretched arms: One mattress cover, four blankets, two sheets, two pillows, two pillowslips, and a bedspread. I progress down the counter sideways, and at each station another pile of items was placed on top of the growing mountain of kit.
Reaching the end of the counter, I was told, “Sign this Army Form 1157 for your new issue of kit”. The only way I could perform the task was to put down the five-foot high pile of kit I was carrying.
After signing the form, I retrieved my kit and staggered off to my billet crab-wise, for that was the only way I could see where I was going.

Quote :

and a bedspread

Such luxury

Gordon. wrote:

Quote :

and a bedspread

Such luxury

No bedspreads came our way.

I do remember a "Blanket, lightweight", though. Dark green it was, with a dark stripe down the middle.

We reckoned they were issued because they looked smart, covering our beds on bullshit inspections.

We got bedspreads in Singapore,but we were attached to the RAF..

Anywhere else it was 5 blankets and 2 sheets all with 3 lines..Perfect for making a bed pack

John A Silkstone wrote:

This was my introduction to army kit and I’m sure we all followed a similar pattern.

Silky

THE INNER SANCTUM

Entering the QM’s department for the first time, I stood in awe at the length of the counter; it must have measured at least seventy-five feet (twenty three metres). Regularly spaced along the counter were small piles of clothing and kit. I was told to stand at the end of the counter with my arms outstretched in front of me.
At the first station, the following items were placed upon my outstretched arms: One mattress cover, four blankets, two sheets, two pillows, two pillowslips, and a bedspread. I progress down the counter sideways, and at each station another pile of items was placed on top of the growing mountain of kit.
Reaching the end of the counter, I was told, “Sign this Army Form 1157 for your new issue of kit”. The only way I could perform the task was to put down the five-foot high pile of kit I was carrying.
After signing the form, I retrieved my kit and staggered off to my billet crab-wise, for that was the only way I could see where I was going.

Pretty much the same procedure with me but, as a "Rider", the Quartermaster said, "If anything fits you, bring it back".


(They are issued with Duvet and 4 foot beds, nowadays.)