Medals and stuff

Question: What has higher precedence than a V.C.?
Hint: Not a V.C. and bar.

I didn't think there was anything higher than that?

Most RAOC Stores Sections did patrol duties, as well as RAOC units in BAOR doing tours in the Infantry Role. Cap Badge is no indicater of being a REMF at all.

Hardrations wrote:

Question: What has higher precedence than a V.C.?
Hint: Not a V.C. and bar.

As far as I am aware NONE - But do enlighten us please?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/Honoursawardsandmedals/DG_176568

Gordon. wrote:

The GSM or CSM which is the proper name,

Sorry to be picky, But its correct name is indeed General Service Medal (1962) it is often misquoted as the 'Campaign Service Medal' due to it having written "For Campaign Service" on the obverse side.

Check your AB108 Entry to see what your Chief Clerk entered it as.

Mike_2817 wrote:

Hardrations wrote:

Question: What has higher precedence than a V.C.?
Hint: Not a V.C. and bar.

As far as I am aware NONE - But do enlighten us please?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/Honoursawardsandmedals/DG_176568

I might have jumped the gun on this one. But the Queen's Scarfs, knitted/crocheted by Queen Victoria. 8 in total were to be awarded to soldiers of the Boar War. They were to be awarded to soldiers who had been recommended for a V.C. had not yet received it and were again recommended for further deeds in the field. Canada received one. Awarded to man who was Irish by birth, American by citizenship but enlisted in the Canadian Army (RCR). It is now on display in the National War Museum in Ottawa.

I remember reading years ago in a Cdn. Armed Forces article that it took precedence over the V.C.Not that you'll see any on parade now.

Interesting, not heard of them before.

At a civic reception a few years ago I heard a 'gentleman' telling all and sundry that his OBE along with all other Orders of the Britsh Empire (KBE, CBE, OBE, MBE) outranked all Military Galantry Medal's.

Before I could get at him, the Lord Lieutenant of Yorkshire (himself a KBE) rounded on him and politly informed him that as far as he was concerned "Orders of the Britsh Empire" were merely 'Attendance Medals' and any holder of a Galentry Medal would get a salute from him.

brum wrote:

That couldn't have happened to a bloke on a foot patrol. (Weren't they R.Sigs by the way?).

Indeed they were Brum; Cpls Derek Wood and David Howes. both Technicians in 39 Bde I believe. Also think there are memorials to them in both Blandford and Catterick.

Mike

jim wrote:

Question: What has higher precedence than a V.C.?
Hint: Not a V.C. and bar.

I didn't think there was anything higher than that?

Queen Victoria's Scarves

There has been much speculation as to the exact degree of honour that the award of the scarf carried. It was at one time believed to be equivalent to the Victoria Cross but this is not the case. During 1902 the New Zealand Government requested that the title 'Queen's Scarf' be used in the Army List and other offficial documents but, in a reply dated 4 June 1902, the Secretary of State refused to grant permission. The question of precedence has continued over the years and, even as late as 1956, it was raised again, when a descendent of one of the holders reqested permission to attend the VC Centenary Celebrations. The official reply stated '...while the Queen's Scarf is regarded as a unique and most distinguished award, relatives of those who received it are not being included in the present ceremony as it does not carry equal status with the Victoria Cross....'.

just been googling

Thanks John. Kind of settles it a bit.

found that and a bit more at

http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/museum/case5/victoria_scarves.html

hope it helps

Teabag wrote:

What are the names you are researching hardrations? If it's not a state secret or anything?

Okay Teabag: Finally got back on this. Had to dig around to find my info as we're packing up to move. Any how info as follows.

Frederick Charles Cliffe born in Conglenton Cheshire 3 Oct 1887. I've even been advertised in the paper there looking for info. But no luck. The family seems to have dropped out of site. He enlisted originally in the 100th Btn. But ended up in CAMC. I do have a the list of family brothers, sisters, mom (dad dropped out of sight). As far as I can find out here, no children and last listing was in 1971 here in Winnipeg. I know where he worked but the firm is out of business.

William John Stewart . Born in County Down Ireland 11 Sept 1881. He died 11-2-53. I got that info from his records. Seeing he was noted as deceased on his records. I believe he must have been pulling a war wound pension as there is a casualty report in his records. Mr. Cliffe had no notation of death on his, so I assume he wasn't pulling a pension. I have the address of Mr Stewart's mother, but that's not the best part of town to poking around and having a look. Also the unit that now holds his old units history says he isn't on the nominal roles, but his medals are engraved with that unit. So he may have been posted to it only for administrative purposes on returning to Canada in 1919

So we'll see how it goes.

Just thought I'd jump in on this one Hardrations/Teabag.
I've photographed all the churchyards in the Congleton area and have just checked. There's no-one with the name of Cliffe.
(Quite a few Canadians in this area though).
brum

brum wrote:

Just thought I'd jump in on this one Hardrations/Teabag.
I've photographed all the churchyards in the Congleton area and have just checked. There's no-one with the name of Cliffe.
(Quite a few Canadians in this area though).
brum

Mr Cliffe had a brother who died at the Somme I believe, but he was British forces.

How interesting, I have never heaqrd of the Queens scarf before.

Thanks john.

FIRST I HEARED WAS ON THIS SITE FROM HARDRATIONS

Oh me as well, no it was the link I was thanking you for

The whole idea that the VC was superior to the Queen's Scarf is interesting.

It strikes me that since the Scarf was personally knitted by Her Majesty, handled by her, had some thought put into it by her, etc., you'd think it'd carry more or at least as much cache as the actual medal.

This is not, of course, to minimize the VC...certainly one of the more distinguished medals, certainly in Canadian Army life.

Of course, one can't wear the Scarf in the same way one can show off one's medals, I understand, but surely there would be some "official" way of wearing it? Possibly mounted as a sash? I don't know, or possibly a stole, draped around the neck and down the front, ensuring of course that any medals also worn are not obscured.

I doubt very much if there are any recipients of the scarf still around.As the scarf is no longer awarded it is a purely academic question.
The VC IS the highest award for gallantry.

So all the scarves must be in Museums now then I suppose.

googled this

An unusual award, in the form of a long scarf crocheted by Queen Victoria, was made to selected servicemen during the South African War. It was apparently worn over the shoulder, passing under the shoulder strap, across the chest and buckled on the right hip. The description of the scarf is given as "..crocheted in Khaki-coloured Berlin wool, approximately nine inches wide and five foot long, including a four inch fringe at each end, and bears the Royal Cipher V.R.I. (Victoria Regina Et Imperatrix)..."

At one time even the number of scarves was in doubt, but it has been confirmed that a total of eight were awarded, four to British servicemen.

The recipients were required to be chosen by a vote of the NCOs and men of each unit, and approved by the Commanding Officer. The four scarves awarded to the British Army went to men of the 2nd Brigade, 1st Division, under the command of Sir Henry Hildyard. These were:

Quartermaster Sergeant Henry George Clay, DCM, 2nd Bn The East Surrey Regiment.

Colour Sergeant William Colclough, 2nd Bn, The Devonshire Regiment.

Colour Sergeant Thomas Ferrett, DCM, 2nd Bn The Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment.

Colour Sergeant Frank Kingsley, DCM, 2nd Bn The West Yorkshire Regiment.

Photographed a war grave today. W McCleod Chief Steward MM. SS Lusitania.

Am I reading it wrongly or does he have the Military Medal? If so how did he win it as a Chief Steward in the Merchant navy?

It could be the abreviation for Merchant Marine, another tile for the merchant Navy.
Bob

BobG wrote:

It could be the abreviation for Merchant Marine, another tile for the merchant Navy.
Bob

Not sure Bob as there are plenty of other Merchant navy graves and no sign of MM on those. Also that is what I always believed to be the American term and we were always Merchant Navy. Certainly around this way anyway.

Wasn't the Lusitania an RMS rather than an SS or am I confusing it? I know Titanic is often shown as SS but she was definitely RMS i.e. Royal Mail Steamer.

teabag,not sure if this will help or hinder,[1]
W McCleod is listed as cabin bed steward on the crew list,[2] as well as being listed as RMS the lusitinia was also listed as an AMC [armed merchant cruiser ] with the admiralty, [3] the MM was not instituted untill 1916 [back dated to 1914 ] so it is very unlikely he was awarded the MM.

dandc wrote:

teabag,not sure if this will help or hinder,[1]
W McCleod is listed as cabin bed steward on the crew list,[2] as well as being listed as RMS the lusitinia was also listed as an AMC [armed merchant cruiser ] with the admiralty, [3] the MM was not instituted untill 1916 [back dated to 1914 ] so it is very unlikely he was awarded the MM.

Can't be right then. His grave says Chief Steward when he obviously wasn't. Lusitania was definitely an RMS yet his grave says SS. Why has he got a war grave as well?

I have emailed a guy who is something of an expert on the Lusitania and await his reply. Sent a copy of the photo as well. Will let you know.