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 Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?

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clara_bow74
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Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2016-12-11

PostSubject: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   11/12/2016, 17:00

I have my grandfather's Army Form X 202/A.
He enlisted as a general solider in 1935, but i can't work out what the Unit or regiment was.
It says No 7 DETENTION & P.P Bks. M.P.S.C
From what i understand this is some sort of prison,but my grandfather was a serving soldier from 1935 to his discharge date of 10 March 1946, and it says his conduct is very good.
Any idea what this could mean? Help very much appreciated.
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JPW
Let Gen
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Number of posts : 1041
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   11/12/2016, 17:19

Clara

I don't think your grandfather would have received a conduct assessment of Very Good on his discharge documentation if he had been an inmate of a Military Prison. He could however have held a minor administrative role for a short time. MPSC stands for Military Prison Staff Corps incidentally who were/are distinct from the British Army Military Police.
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clara_bow74
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PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   12/12/2016, 17:00

Ahh, that makes more sense. He has a reference at the end saying he is a hard worker and would be suited to various posts after discharge.
It says on the front of the book, Rank, SGT, and ARM: M.P.S.C. (Not sure what ARM is, unless its army.) He was in the cavalry in India, i know that much, and came back for D. Day for the second front, according to my great aunt (his surviving sister).
Any idea how or if i could find where he served, maybe using his Army number.
Many thanks for your help - I am very new at military records, as I'm sure you've worked out!
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JPW
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1041
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   12/12/2016, 19:51

Clara

Your grandfather ended his military service in the rank of Sergeant as the equivalent of Jailer in a military prison (a fellow contributor to this site has sent me a document listing the military prisons in England in WW2 but unfortunately there is no number on the unit title)

Have you considered applying to the Army Personnel Centre Glasgow for your grandfather's service records? It would cost you £30 and as a direct next of kin you are entitled to the full set, these would answer your questions accurately.
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clara_bow74
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PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   14/12/2016, 14:10

Thanks for that JPW, I have printed out the forms to fill out. My dad is still alive so I'm assuming he will have to fill them out, but he will be happy to do this. He didn't know any of this - i don't think my grandfather spoke much about his time in the army - only that he spent nine years in India as a serving soldier, and wanted to go out there to live - but my grandmother didn't want to!
Thanks very much for your help, greatly appreciated! My dad deciphered the stamp on the discharge paper - it was No.7 Detention & Field Punishment BKS.
Thanks again.
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Goldmohur
WOII
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Number of posts : 93
Age : 76
Localisation : Doncaster
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Gutersloh, Duisburg, Bracht, Rheindahlen. Also Non BAOR, Blackdown, Corsham. Shoeburyness, Ty Croes, Aden, Bicester.
Registration date : 2007-03-10

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   14/12/2016, 15:35

MPSC means Military Provost Staff Corps. A relatively small Corps in terms of numbers. They were the Prison Officers of Military prisons. No ranks below Sgt I think. It was not a Corps one joined upon enlistment, its members were drawn from long service NCOs of other parts of the Army. Members had to be keen disciplinarians - needless to say they were not wildly popular within the wider Army
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steve
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Number of posts : 773
Age : 68
Localisation : near Cuxhaven
Cap Badge : Royal Signals + Royal Engineers
Places Served : Verden-Aller + Willich + Iserlohn + Hameln
Registration date : 2010-02-14

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   14/12/2016, 21:50

Welcome Clara

From my 1st Corps District research and 30th Corps District with research in progress!

May 45 – 6 Field Punishment Camp – location TBC but sure in the Osnabrück area command 2nd Army – to 30th Corps District Jun 45

Jun 45 – 30th Corps District Detention Barracks – Bassum Martfeld

Sep 45 – 6 Field Punishment and Detention Barracks – Schloss Bentlage Rheine – to Münster Nov 45

Oct 45 – 3 Military Prison and Detention Barracks – Bielefeld

Jul 46 – 4 Inspectorate of Prisons, Detention Barracks and Field Punishment Camps – HQ BAOR in Bad Oeynhausen – clearly the higher command in Germany

As yet no number 7…however could be 30 Corps District or 8 Corps District…JPW and myself are on the case!
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steve
LE Maj
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Number of posts : 773
Age : 68
Localisation : near Cuxhaven
Cap Badge : Royal Signals + Royal Engineers
Places Served : Verden-Aller + Willich + Iserlohn + Hameln
Registration date : 2010-02-14

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   15/12/2016, 14:26

Been doing some checking and come up with the following

6 Field Punishment and Detention Barracks in Münster closed Feb 46 and replaced by 3 Military Prison and Detention Barracks in Bielefeld

Have found 8 Field Punishment and Detention Barracks recorded in Schleswig-Holstein in Aug 46, so believe that 30 Corps District Detention Barracks at Martfeld south east of Verden was renamed "7" until closing down probably at the same time as "6"

Hope this helps

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JPW
Let Gen
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Number of posts : 1041
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   15/12/2016, 16:43

Had a quick glance through Discovery, the index of documents held in the National Archives Kew.

There appears to be two volumes for a 7 Field Punishment Centre in the WO 171 Series covering the period March 1944-December 1945. Further details will have to await my next visit to Kew in the new year.
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Pborn4
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Number of posts : 102
Registration date : 2016-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   16/12/2016, 02:14

No 7 Field Punishment Barracks and 25 Mil Prison were set-up at Antwerp at end of Feb 45 !





(Aka Pborn3) !!
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Shelldrake
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Number of posts : 3003
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   16/12/2016, 08:12

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JPW
Let Gen
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Number of posts : 1041
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   16/12/2016, 09:16

Shelldrake

Thank you, some useful references are revealed

JPW
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clara_bow74
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PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   17/12/2016, 12:40

Thanks so much everyone, its very generous of you all to give of your time so freely! I would never have found that out. I get totally lost with the National Archives.

His release Leave Certificate states:

Present Rank: SGT
Unit, Regt or corps: No 7 Detention & F.P Bks. M.S.P.C
Date of last Enlistment: 11 Feb 1935
Trade on Enlistment: Driver
Trade Courses and Trade Test passed: Wireless Operator
Military Conduct: Very Good. (Followed by long testimonial)
Place: BAOR, Date: ! Jan 1946
Unit overseas stamp says NO.7 Detention and Field Punishment Bks

My grandad was very private about his time in the army. I know he started as a cavalry man, then moved on to driving Matilda Tanks, according to my dad, but other than that I don't know - only that he came over for D Day for the Second Front, according to his surviving sister. I don't even know where the Second front was. I have been doing family history for many years, but am only just starting to decipher military records. My grandad had a big photo album though, of his time in the army. Maybe that may be more significant now. Ill give it another look!
Thanks again everyone :-)
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JPW
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Number of posts : 1041
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   17/12/2016, 13:20

Clara

Steve and I (and others) are still on the case, we believe your grandfather ended his military service with 7 Detention Barracks in Germany not Antwerp. There is a File in the WO 171 Series at Kew which could provide more useful information I will check it out when I next visit in the New Year.

"Second Front" was a common slang term for the Invasion of Europe from the UK, The D Day Landings were the start of the actual event.
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JPW
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Number of posts : 1041
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   22/12/2016, 20:37

Clara

A holding reply, the detail will have to await the arrival of your grandfather's record of service

Had the opportunity to make a quick visit to Kew today and examine the War Diaries for 7 Field Punishment Compound.

These show the unit in various locations in England in Spring/early Summer 1944 including East Hampstead, Aldershot (very briefly) Middleton Tyas and finally Dorking in late June.

On the 12th July the unit moved to L'Oup Hors near Caen in France, again thestay was short and the unit moved to Bayeux on the 21st July where it was to remain till early March 1945. Its final location was Fort Liezele Termonde in Antwerp.

As an experienced tank commander (Sergeant) I don't believe his Regiment would have willingly released him during the actual war. He could however been posted as/ volunteered for duties in the military Jail after VE Day (May 1945) when there was a massive reorgaanisation and reduction in size of the British Army in Germany. The detail will be in his Record of Service
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steve
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Number of posts : 773
Age : 68
Localisation : near Cuxhaven
Cap Badge : Royal Signals + Royal Engineers
Places Served : Verden-Aller + Willich + Iserlohn + Hameln
Registration date : 2010-02-14

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   8/9/2017, 09:33

clara_bow74 wrote:
Thanks so much everyone, its very generous of you all to give of your time so freely! I would never have found that out. I get totally lost with the National Archives.

His release Leave Certificate states:

Present Rank: SGT
Unit, Regt or corps: No 7 Detention & F.P Bks. M.S.P.C
Date of last Enlistment: 11 Feb 1935
Trade on Enlistment: Driver
Trade Courses and Trade Test passed: Wireless Operator
Military Conduct: Very Good. (Followed by long testimonial)
Place: BAOR, Date: ! Jan 1946
Unit overseas stamp says NO.7 Detention and Field Punishment Bks

My grandad was very private about his time in the army. I know he started as a cavalry man, then moved on to driving Matilda Tanks, according to my dad, but other than that I don't know - only that he came over for D Day for the Second Front, according to his surviving sister. I don't even know where the Second front was. I have been doing family history for many years, but am only just starting to decipher military records. My grandad had a big photo album though, of his time in the army. Maybe that may be more significant now. Ill give it another look!
Thanks again everyone :-)

Bingo! While going through 30 Corps District documentation have the unit as at 4 Feb 46 located in Puers-B (incorrect spelling) have found Puurs in the Belgian province of Antwerp
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alan8376
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Number of posts : 405
Age : 69
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   8/9/2017, 17:55

Well done Steve. Strange how things pop up when you weren't really looking for it.
Good memory!
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Rocky
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Number of posts : 93
Registration date : 2009-11-23

PostSubject: Re: Help, WW2 BOAR, Which unit did my grandfather belong to?   8/9/2017, 18:23

Hi,

It looks like you've had most of the information that you requested, but here is some additional info for interests sake, showing the MPSC, or MPS, as they are known today.

http://www.army.mod.uk/agc/provost/23208.aspx

This page also includes info on recruitment, which would explain your Grandfathers rank and conduct assessment. Recruitment was for some time only open to service personnel of the minimum rank of Sgt, but like many roles in today's Army, has been opened up to Cpls (with a recommendation for promotion to the rank of Sgt). The minimum rank held by MPSC is Sgt. They also commission from the ranks. There are no direct entry officers.

The minimum conduct assessment for employment would have been 'very good', if not 'exemplary'. He really would have had to have been a man who set a very good example and who was held in high regard by his previous Commanding Officer. You would expect personnel at the point of their discharge to leave with a similar assessment. As has been said, your Grandfather's unit may not have been keen to lose a man of his calibre and that attitude remains today. He would have been well above average ability and most likely would have held an instructor qualification of some sort (weapons, drill, etc) as their job was rehabilitate 'wayward' soldiers. A few people from my former unit transferred over to the MPS and all were very good soldiers. For those 'Detainees' who were allowed to 'soldier on' following their sentence at MCTC, they were considered reformed characters and many were promoted within a short time of their return.
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