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 BMH Re-visited

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Pborn4
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PostSubject: BMH Re-visited   15/8/2017, 08:52

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Rocky
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PostSubject: Re: BMH Re-visited   8/9/2017, 18:31

They spent an absolute fortune of BMH Rinteln and BMH Iserlohn, shortly before the decision was made to abandon them.  A complete waste of £M's of British taxes.  Iserlohn was offered to the local German authorities but they couldn't use it as they already had a hospital, and it just stood there. Rinteln was the same.  If Joe public knew just how much money was wasted in BAOR/BFG during the last quarter of a century they'd fall over in disgust.  It wasn't like the recent closure hadn't been foreseen.
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soprano54
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Number of posts : 159
Age : 59
Localisation : Gloucestershire
Cap Badge : RTR
Places Served : Fallingbostel, Tidworth, Paderborn, Cyprus, Bovington, Hemer, NI, Coltishall, Incirlik, Benson
Registration date : 2007-03-10

PostSubject: Re: BMH Re-visited   11/9/2017, 14:48

Rocky wrote:
They spent an absolute fortune of BMH Rinteln and BMH Iserlohn, shortly before the decision was made to abandon them.  A complete waste of £M's of British taxes.  Iserlohn was offered to the local German authorities but they couldn't use it as they already had a hospital, and it just stood there.  Rinteln was the same.  If Joe public knew just how much money was wasted in BAOR/BFG during the last quarter of a century they'd fall over in disgust.  It wasn't like the recent closure hadn't been foreseen.

And the waste still goes on to this very day! They closed JHQ not so long back and HQ UKSC(G) moved to Bielefeld, the boss didn't like the entrance to his building as it was at the back and had it moved to the front! Knowing that they are only going to be there for the next couple of years you'd have thought they'd just make do FFS!
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alan8376
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Number of posts : 405
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Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

PostSubject: Re: BMH Re-visited   11/9/2017, 19:10

Rocky,
Putting aside the recent expenditure on BMH Iserlohn and BMH Rinteln. Were those Bld's and ALL the Camps being left to rot or be pulled down ours anyway? In 1945, did we just take them and had to pay rent for them?

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Pborn4
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PostSubject: Properties owned, loaned or rented   13/9/2017, 19:52

Were those Bldgs and ALL the Camps being left to rot or be pulled down ours anyway? In 1945, did we just take them and had to pay rent for them?

Initially there were no hand over boards in 1945 so many buildings, barracks, concentration camps, offices, private homes, former Wehrmacht Quarters, Ammo and Store Depots, Fuel Dumps, Ranges, Trg Areas, roads, tracks,  schools, hospitals, sewage farms, docks, bunkers, harbours. airfields, town halls, water works, churches, hotels, were taken over as seen, as found.  

However the Army being the Army quickly made inventories of what it held, Camp Commandants were appointed (super QMs) to take these assets on the books, and authorise funds, manpower and materials for maint and repair.  In the early years CRE, & Pioneer Corps, supervised Mixed Service Orgs (MSO), Mobile Civilian Artisan Groups (MCAG),  Mobile Civilian Labour Groups (MCLG) in the work, although as the  scope and depth of the Work (including builds) escalated the MPBW from England  came across to supervise Civil Engineering tasks (though even now in modern times there is still an RE Clerk of Works lodged in the BR building authority premises - though work is sub-contracted to/through Babcock?). An early rule was if we use it for training, it has a Part No. /Catalogue entry - RE, if it is accommodation - Ministry of Public Buildings and Works (MPBW) - buy it in.

As  peace proliferated -  and a new Germany approached - all these assets were being listed by the Federal Assets office  (Bundesvermögensamt)  a branch of the Federal Finance Ministry, in close liaison with the Area Estates Surveyors (Defence Estates now?), and the remnants of the Staatliche Bauamt - who had held the maintenance liability for  German defence properties up to 1945.  There had already been liaison to identify service supply maps (water, electric, gas, sewage), and to take back properties demolished or not required by the allies.

In 1955 by means of a Federal Gazette (Bundesgesetzblatt) publication - declaration properties were ceded, at common law, to the "British Forces, represented by the CinC BAOR, for their use for Defence purposes".  The CinC can of course delegate day to day control to other departments.

The "built and natural estate" and use conditions are regulated through the NATO Status of Forces Agreement 1955 (NATO SOFA) (Supplementary Agreement of 3 August 1959, as Amended by the Agreements of 21 October 1971, 18 May 1981, and 18 March 1993, to Supplement the Agreement between the Parties to the North Atlantic Treaty regarding the Status of their Forces with respect to Foreign Forces stationed in the Federal Republic of Germany).  The properties belong to the Federal Government represented now by the Bundes Anstalt für Immobilienaufgaben - still part of the Federal Finance Ministry, with the Federal Forestry Office a key player in estate management. (In UK the Forestry is a tenant of MoD, in Germany the boot is on the other foot!). The NATO SoFA Article 63 exempts rent, and regulates service costs etc in that no charge will be greater than that paid by the Bundeswehr.

A number of developments and new builds were not funded by the German Government Defence Costs budget - eg (possibly) Athlone Barracks Sennelager, certain ammunition depots (one or two are actually NATO funded and NATO funded objects revert to the Host Nation), the CATT Building at Sennelager,  Tower Barracks Duelmen, Prince Rupert School Rinteln, John Buchan School Sennelager.  The rule of thumb seems to be that if the  object is re-used for a similar purposes after BR Forces have vacated - some recompense is due, otherwise the properties are offered to the Bundeswehr, other NATO Forces,  then Federal/Land/Kreis/Town authorities or the public, for sale - and the building maintenance liability passes.

Married quarters were once offered as individual sales, to the public, but this proved time consuming and difficult where  BR use had differed from the Land Agency (Kataster) Map - ie fences were not in the right place, access roads differed between map and actual, and the actual "Winter Clearance" liability was difficult to define.  Eventually the sale of quarters had to be  by plots /groups of blocks to financial houses (banks) who could do the local level checks and condition endorsements for sale to individuals.  (eg a house close to an active ammo storage site zone cannot have an extension in the roof - this is endorsed in the deeds!)
The public only saw Brit Married quarters and did not realise that some of these properties were already in private ownership - by keen investors hoping long term rental would fill their pension pot.  Some multi level accommodation blocks could have more investor owners than there are flats, and they all have shares in the cellar and parking spaces - and maintenance costs when the properties are vacated.
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Pborn4
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PostSubject: Properties owned, loaned or rented   13/9/2017, 19:55

Were those Bldgs and ALL the Camps being left to rot or be pulled down ours anyway? In 1945, did we just take them and had to pay rent for them?

Initially there were no hand over boards in 1945 so many buildings, barracks, concentration camps, offices, private homes, former Wehrmacht Quarters, Ammo and Store Depots, Fuel Dumps, Ranges, Trg Areas, roads, tracks,  schools, hospitals, sewage farms, docks, bunkers, harbours. airfields, town halls, water works, churches, hotels, were taken over as seen, as found.  

However the Army being the Army quickly made inventories of what it held, Camp Commandants were appointed (super QMs) to take these assets on the books, and authorise funds, manpower and materials for maint and repair.  In the early years CRE, & Pioneer Corps, supervised Mixed Service Orgs (MSO), Mobile Civilian Artisan Groups (MCAG),  Mobile Civilian Labour Groups (MCLG) in the work, although as the  scope and depth of the Work (including builds) escalated the MPBW from England  came across to supervise Civil Engineering tasks (though even now in modern times there is still an RE Clerk of Works lodged in the BR building authority premises - though work is sub-contracted to/through Babcock?). An early rule was if we use it for training, it has a Part No. /Catalogue entry - RE, if it is accommodation - Ministry of Public Buildings and Works (MPBW) - buy it in.

As  peace proliferated -  and a new Germany approached - all these assets were being listed by the Federal Assets office  (Bundesvermögensamt)  a branch of the Federal Finance Ministry, in close liaison with the Area Estates Surveyors (Defence Estates now?), and the remnants of the Staatliche Bauamt - who had held the maintenance liability for  German defence properties up to 1945.  There had already been liaison to identify service supply maps (water, electric, gas, sewage), and to take back properties demolished or not required by the allies.

In 1955 by means of a Federal Gazette (Bundesgesetzblatt) publication - declaration properties were ceded, at common law, to the "British Forces, represented by the CinC BAOR, for their use for Defence purposes".  The CinC can of course delegate day to day control to other departments.

The "built and natural estate" and use conditions are regulated through the NATO Status of Forces Agreement 1955 (NATO SOFA) (Supplementary Agreement of 3 August 1959, as Amended by the Agreements of 21 October 1971, 18 May 1981, and 18 March 1993, to Supplement the Agreement between the Parties to the North Atlantic Treaty regarding the Status of their Forces with respect to Foreign Forces stationed in the Federal Republic of Germany).  The properties belong to the Federal Government represented now by the Bundes Anstalt für Immobilienaufgaben - still part of the Federal Finance Ministry, with the Federal Forestry Office a key player in estate management. (In UK the Forestry is a tenant of MoD, in Germany the boot is on the other foot!). The NATO SoFA Article 63 exempts rent, and regulates service costs etc in that no charge will be greater than that paid by the Bundeswehr.

A number of developments and new builds were not funded by the German Government Defence Costs budget - eg (possibly) Athlone Barracks Sennelager, certain ammunition depots (one or two are actually NATO funded and NATO funded objects revert to the Host Nation), the CATT Building at Sennelager,  Tower Barracks Duelmen, Prince Rupert School Rinteln, John Buchan School Sennelager.  The rule of thumb seems to be that if the  object is re-used for a similar purposes after BR Forces have vacated - some recompense is due, otherwise the properties are offered to the Bundeswehr, other NATO Forces,  then Federal/Land/Kreis/Town authorities or the public, for sale - and the building maintenance liability passes.

Married quarters were once offered as individual sales, to the public, but this proved time consuming and difficult where  BR use had differed from the Land Agency (Kataster) Map - ie fences were not in the right place, access roads differed between map and actual, and the actual "Winter Clearance" liability was difficult to define.  Eventually the sale of quarters had to be  by plots /groups of blocks to financial houses (banks) who could do the local level checks and condition endorsements for sale to individuals.  (eg a house close to an active ammo storage site zone cannot have an extension in the roof - this is endorsed in the deeds!)
The public only saw Brit Married quarters and did not realise that some of these properties were already in private ownership - by keen investors hoping long term rental would fill their pension pot.  Some multi level accommodation blocks could have more investor owners than there are flats, and they all have shares in the cellar and parking spaces - and maintenance costs when the properties are vacated.
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alan8376
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Number of posts : 405
Age : 69
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

PostSubject: Re: BMH Re-visited   13/9/2017, 20:22

Thanks for that. A rather lot to take in! I actually think along the road the UK may have got conned by some of these complicated agreements.

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Pborn4
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Registration date : 2016-12-16

PostSubject: Under new management   19/11/2017, 22:32

some recent photos from BMH  http://www.sixth-sense.de/wards-and-all/
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