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 Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.

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mjm34
Maj
Maj
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Number of posts : 262
Age : 67
Localisation : Gtr Manchester
Cap Badge : R.Signals
Places Served : BAOR, UK, Mid East, Far East, Cent America
Registration date : 2009-02-21

PostSubject: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   23/7/2009, 18:25

I wonder if anyone can help?

When the Army ceased painting the Formation Signs and Arm of Service markings on the front and rear of vehicles in the sixties, they were replaced by a discreet number on the front and rear showing the owning unit, i.e; 1/40 for 1 Div HQ.

Does anyone know of a source that lists these numbers, or if anyone remembers the number for their unit could they please let me know.

Thanks/Mike Very Happy
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298HALL
Sgt
Sgt


Number of posts : 22
Age : 56
Localisation : Sherwood Forest
Cap Badge : Royal Corps of Signals
Places Served : Paderborn / Werl
Registration date : 2008-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   22/8/2009, 01:35

Good question - I vaguely remember having such a number on my FV432 in 1979 onwards but have no idea of it's significance or origin !!

On a related subject - I don't recall ever having call signs painted on our vehicles in the way that the armour and artillery did - anyone any idea why not ?
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ciphers
Maj Gen
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Number of posts : 962
Age : 83
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   22/8/2009, 03:50

Try these two links re TAC signs .. on the second one scroll down to vehicle signs ... 6 armd Div Sigs were 40 on blue and white, 20 Armd Bde Sigs were 49 on blue and white

Len (Ciphers)




http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/Modelling/Markings/BritArmDivMarkings-Norm.jpg
Vehicle Arm of Service Markings


http://www.petergh.f2s.com/flashes.html
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dml34
LCpl
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Number of posts : 6
Localisation : Near London
Registration date : 2009-08-22

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   22/8/2009, 13:35

Mike

I have some information on BAOR vehicles markings.

Formation signs were not used after 1963, and there was a period in 1963 when no markings were used. Following this trial, a GRO dated 31 Jan 1964 says "....it has been decided that it is necessary to introduce some means of identifying the unit or headquarters to which vehicles belong." The simplified numerical system to which you refer was then introduced.

I think that (official) vehicle markings in BAOR were removed in 1986, for security reasons.

Drop me a pm

Dave
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mjm34
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Number of posts : 262
Age : 67
Localisation : Gtr Manchester
Cap Badge : R.Signals
Places Served : BAOR, UK, Mid East, Far East, Cent America
Registration date : 2009-02-21

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   23/8/2009, 14:40

Thanks Len
I had found these sites before but unfortunately they refer to WWII. WWII vehicle markings are very well documented. What isn't so well documented is post WWII. I believe that divisional vehicle markings more or less followed the WWII ones but brigades got their own formation signs and Arm of Service markings independent of the Divisional ones. These, and the ones that followed are the ones I am trying to get info on.

Anyhow thanks again for pointing out the web sites.

Mike
ciphers wrote:
Try these two links re TAC signs .. on the second one scroll down to vehicle signs ... 6 armd Div Sigs were 40 on blue and white, 20 Armd Bde Sigs were 49 on blue and white

Len (Ciphers)




http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/Modelling/Markings/BritArmDivMarkings-Norm.jpg
Vehicle Arm of Service Markings


http://www.petergh.f2s.com/flashes.html
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mjm34
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Number of posts : 262
Age : 67
Localisation : Gtr Manchester
Cap Badge : R.Signals
Places Served : BAOR, UK, Mid East, Far East, Cent America
Registration date : 2009-02-21

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   23/8/2009, 14:56

dml34 wrote:
Mike

I have some information on BAOR vehicles markings.

Formation signs were not used after 1963, and there was a period in 1963 when no markings were used. Following this trial, a GRO dated 31 Jan 1964 says "....it has been decided that it is necessary to introduce some means of identifying the unit or headquarters to which vehicles belong." The simplified numerical system to which you refer was then introduced.

I think that (official) vehicle markings in BAOR were removed in 1986, for security reasons.

Drop me a pm

Dave

Cheers for this Dave. I've sent you a PM.

Mike
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recce83
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Number of posts : 201
Age : 78
Localisation : Peachland British Columbia, Canada
Cap Badge : Black Watch of Canada
Places Served : 4 CIBG Soest and Werl 1957-1965, Camp Borden, Camp Gagetown
Registration date : 2009-06-04

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   23/8/2009, 20:40

The interesting thing about vehicle unit markings was having to cover them over with some easily removable substance (blanco worked well) before excercises. The time and energy spent camouflaging vehicles would have been somewhat mis-spent if the bright red square with a white '9' in the middle and another red square with gold maple leaf on the other side were left in plain sight.

It also meant that the occupants were relatively free of being identified should some authoritative figure (think MPs) spotted said vehicle parked suspiciously adjacent to a refreshment point. They were great days!!!
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
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Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   27/8/2009, 17:04

While not listing individual units, I have found these articles useful for both UK & BAOR Markings:

Painting and Marking Post War British Vehicles

Part 1 -

Introduction

Vehicle Marking Requirements as defined in 1950-54

http://www.emlra.org/articles/painting_marking_postwar1of4.html

Part 2 -

Vehicle Painting Requirements as defined in 1959

Vehicle Marking Requirements as defined in 1959-1962

http://www.emlra.org/articles/painting_marking_postwar2of4.html

Part 3 -

Vehicle Registration Marks 1973

Vehicle Marking Requirements as defined in 1975

Vehicle Marking Requirements as defined in 1977

http://www.emlra.org/articles/painting_marking_postwar3of4.html

Part 4 -

Vehicle Marking Requirements as required from 31st March 1978

Vehicle Marking Requirements as defined in 1980-83

Vehicle Marking Requirements as defined in 1986

Vehicle Marking Requirements as defined in 1990

http://www.emlra.org/articles/painting_marking_postwar4of4.html
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dml34
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Localisation : Near London
Registration date : 2009-08-22

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   6/9/2009, 12:55

Vehicle Unit Signs (the serial numbers) can be found in Annex F of "Staff Duties in the Field". These date from 1952 to about 1962, and include Brigade, Division and Corps serial numbers.

This is the serial number listing for Division HQ and Troops
Date is November 1962

40 HQ Div
40 HQ Coy/Sqn
40 Int Pl
60 Spare
66 CS Regt RA
67 CS Regt RA
68 CS Regt RA
69 Spare RA
70 Gen Sp Regt RA
76 Fd Pk Sqn RE
77 Fd Sqn RE
78 Fd Sqn RE
79 Fd Sqn RE
81 HQ Tpt Colm RASC
84 Bde Gp Tpt Coy RASC
85 Bde Gp Tpt Coy RASC
86 Bde Gp Tpt Coy RASC
89 Fd Amb RAMC
90 Fd Amb RAMC
91 Fd Amb RAMC
92 Ordnance Fd Pk RAOC
93 Ordnance Fd Pk RAOC
94 Ordnance Fd Pk RAOC
95 Wksp REME
96 Wksp REME
97 Wksp REME
98 Wksp REME
99 Div Pro Unit RMP

Army Group Troops are not listed in Annex F. I have found a 1959 and a 1962 BAOR listing at the PRO, and would be interested to correspond with anyone who has any details of pre-1959 Army Group Troops markings. There are few useful pictures on this website.
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mjm34
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Number of posts : 262
Age : 67
Localisation : Gtr Manchester
Cap Badge : R.Signals
Places Served : BAOR, UK, Mid East, Far East, Cent America
Registration date : 2009-02-21

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   6/9/2009, 14:44

dml34 wrote:
Vehicle Unit Signs (the serial numbers) can be found in Annex F of "Staff Duties in the Field". These date from 1952 to about 1962, and include Brigade, Division and Corps serial numbers.

This is the serial number listing for Division HQ and Troops
Date is November 1962

Army Group Troops are not listed in Annex F. I have found a 1959 and a 1962 BAOR listing at the PRO, and would be interested to correspond with anyone who has any details of pre-1959 Army Group Troops markings. There are few useful pictures on this website.

Cheers for this Dave. Great stuff and exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

Mike
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dml34
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Localisation : Near London
Registration date : 2009-08-22

PostSubject: Re: Help needed - Vehicle markings in BAOR/1 Corps.   7/9/2009, 23:44

Scans of Annex F of Staff Duties in the Field can be found, thanks to Clive Elliott, at this website.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?t=7897

These show the vehicle unit serial numbers from 1952 to 1962. The 1962 numbering system was used up to about 1977, when it was modified upon the re-introduction of armoured divisions in Germany.

(Some other interesting articles can be found in Clive's Corner)
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