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 Unit Titles

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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Unit Titles   12/10/2009, 13:05

Quite a while ago, I seem to remember a point being raised about Unit titles on the main site. I think it was via a PM or e-mail through the main site.

It was connected to how Unit titles (be they Battalion, Regiment, or whatever) were entered on the individual pages. I, for one, am in favour of entering titles in such a way as they are relatively easily identifiable by those visitors to the site who have little or no knowledge of the Services as a whole, without upsetting those who may have been members of those units, and staying close to the correct format if possible (I know how much the Royal Anglians hated being called the Royal Anglicans).

To give an example I will use an Artillery unit that has featured on a number of pages (it has had a number of roles in its history). How would you see it best entered?

12 Regt. R.A.
12th Regt. R.A.
12 L.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12th L.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12 Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12th Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A.

The list could go on I suppose, but I would appreciate your thoughts. What would be best for those with little knowledge, as against writing each one out in full!!

Paul.
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Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
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Number of posts : 937
Age : 63
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   13/10/2009, 19:24

The Royal Anglicans....ROTFLMAO

I think listing units under their correct designation then in parentheses having it written out in full...reading something like "12th Lt.A>D Regt. R.A." is very cryptic to those not in the know....in fact, I'm even finding it cryptic!! At the risk of appearing to be a total idiot I'm going to guess here. If I'm right, wonderful. My status as An Army Brat in Good Standing remains. If I'm wrong (which I fully anticipate I will be!) it illustrates my point.

12th Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A. = "12th Light Air Defence Regiment, Royal Army" .

Of course if one comes across "L.A.D." then "Lt.A.D." it may not connect it is one and the same thing.

My guess above is based on the acronym Lt.A.D. and understanding "Lt" is either Lieutenant (hardly likely here!) or Light. If I came across "L.A.D." I'd have no idea...

Just a thought from someone who is now thoroughly "civilianized". LOL
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
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Number of posts : 960
Age : 67
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   13/10/2009, 20:24

Royal Artillery Stephen.
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Stephen Lock
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
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Number of posts : 937
Age : 63
Localisation : Calgary
Cap Badge : Pads Brat
Places Served : Father -- Canadian Army. Served Hemer, Soest, and Wetter
Registration date : 2007-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   13/10/2009, 20:39

Ahhhh...of course....Artillery. See? Even as I wrote "Royal Army" I was thinking to myself that probably wouldn't be it. I mean, why specifically mention something that is already within something. Having it as "Royal Army" (if that were the case) is redundant as 12 Lt. A.D. is already in the royal army!! Duh! LOL

Of course, this supports exactly my point....I had added some more stuff to my original post but, due to the weather here (wet heavy snow) I am experiencing computer issues and the edit didn't go through.

Something to do with the level of acronyms and jargon used within the military which tends to be highly cryptic to "outsiders" and often results in just not bothering...

Of course, this is exactly the point, isn't it? Army types and their families (myself included at one time) very much buy into the "us vs them" syndrome and such acronyms are a very conscious way of keeping "them" at bay and away from "us." One finds this in any line of career, actually.

I spent a lot of years working and managing various non-profit groups (aka NGOs...see? More jargon!) and the same sort of mindset was at work there, too. Teens do it to their parents, this group does it in response/reaction to that group, etc.

Anyway, the point being (oh, at last he gets to his point!! LOL) for civvies or the offspring or grandchildren of military seeking info, coming up against cryptic terminology they have no idea about is intimidating and somewhat offputting. So, yeah, I think listing the unit by how "us" knows it and then "translating it" for "them" is probably the way to go.

I find this confusing array of acronyms and such to be very much the case with the US military, for instance. Totally loses me and results in my just pretty much giving up, which is a shame.
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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Re:- Unit Titles   13/10/2009, 21:32

Stephen Lock wrote:
The Royal Anglicans....ROTFLMAO

.....12th Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A. = "12th Light Air Defence Regiment, Royal Army" .

Of course if one comes across "L.A.D." then "Lt.A.D." it may not connect it is one and the same thing.

:DYou were almost there Stephen Very Happy

L.A.D and Lt.A.D are different, Light Aid Detachment (R.C.E.M.E.) and (as you rightly stated) Light Air Defence (R.C.A.).

Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   13/10/2009, 22:26

Quote :
12 Regt. R.A.
12th Regt. R.A.
12 L.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12th L.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12 Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12th Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A.

I would say
1) correct
2) I have never seen the "th" used in any title
3) Should read. L.A.D. 12 Regt. R.A.
4) th again
5) Correct??/I think
6) th again

Only my thoughts.

If it had been signals
1) would read... 12 Signal Regiment...... or Regt.
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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   13/10/2009, 22:43

Gordon. wrote:
Quote :
12 Regt. R.A.
12th Regt. R.A.
12 L.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12th L.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12 Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A.
12th Lt.A.D. Regt. R.A.

I would say
1) correct
2) I have never seen the "th" used in any title
3) Should read. L.A.D. 12 Regt. R.A.
4) th again
5) Correct??/I think
6) th again

Only my thoughts.

If it had been signals
1) would read... 12 Signal Regiment...... or Regt.

I knew that the L.A.D. would create a comment, although I have seen that Regiment noted as such. Personally, my thoughts are gravitating towards 1 and 5.

The only time I can really recall seeing "st", "nd", "rd", etc is in titles such as Battalion numbering.

Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   14/10/2009, 08:06

On the official RA website,it is listed as

12 Regt RA
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mjm34
Maj
Maj
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Number of posts : 262
Age : 67
Localisation : Gtr Manchester
Cap Badge : R.Signals
Places Served : BAOR, UK, Mid East, Far East, Cent America
Registration date : 2009-02-21

PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   14/10/2009, 18:12

Gordon. wrote:
On the official RA website,it is listed as

12 Regt RA

Yes. This would probably be the best bet, especially in the case of units that can change their role. 12 Regt RA for instance has in its time been:

12 ATk Regt (Anti-tank)
12 LAA Regt (Light AntiAircraft)
12 LtAD* Regt (Light Air Defence)
12 AD Regt (Air Defence)

*as pointed out above LAD would be Light Aid Detachment REME. Royal Artillery Regiments (like RE Regts) don't have LADs, they have REME Workshops.

Mike
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Locator
SSgt/CSgt
SSgt/CSgt


Number of posts : 45
Age : 73
Localisation : Stamford, Lincs
Cap Badge : RA
Places Served : Munsterlager, Dortmund, Bergen-Hohne, Larkhill, Celle, as well as NI (x4), Canada, Paris and Catterick
Registration date : 2008-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Unit Titles   23/10/2009, 10:11

Gentlemen,
May I add a last word?
We are talking about Full and Short (or abbreviated) Titles. Full Titles in the Gunner world might be 1st Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (1RHA) or 94th Locating Regiment Royal Artillery (94 Loc Regt RA). Up until the '80s, designators such as Field, Medium, Heavy (Fd, Med, Hy) were also used but these have now all gone. Hence, 12th Regiment Royal Artillery (12 Regt RA). Occasionally, one sees expressions like 47 Regt RA (Lt Gun/Starstreak) but this is not universal and usually crops up in ORBAT Lists. Note the absence of full stops and superfluous grammar in the short titles.

Turning to the REME element, in the '70s 25 Fd Regt RA had a REME LAD commanded by a Capt whereas 45 Med Regt had a Wksps REME commanded by a Maj. The reason was the difference in eqpt complexity and variety.
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