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 Rank peculiar to regiment

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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Rank peculiar to regiment   2/3/2011, 17:16



I've just been watching the beginning of the movie "Ice cold in Alex".

In the opening titles Harry Andrews is cast as a "MSM" and he wears the RSM's coat of arms.

Can any of you RASC/RCT blokes tell me what "MSM" stands for ?
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recce83
Capt
Capt


Number of posts : 201
Age : 77
Localisation : Peachland British Columbia, Canada
Cap Badge : Black Watch of Canada
Places Served : 4 CIBG Soest and Werl 1957-1965, Camp Borden, Camp Gagetown
Registration date : 2009-06-04

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   2/3/2011, 22:08

Mechanic Sargeant Major. Found mainly in RASC/RCASC/RCT transport companies. They were always WO 1s, at least in the Canadian Army, and ran the Workshop Platoons or LADs.

Wow, you dug up a blast from the past with that movie. Haven't seen it in 20 years at least.

Cheers
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   2/3/2011, 22:47

recce83 wrote:
Mechanic Sargeant Major. Found mainly in RASC/RCASC/RCT transport companies. They were always WO 1s, at least in the Canadian Army, and ran the Workshop Platoons or LADs.

Wow, you dug up a blast from the past with that movie. Haven't seen it in 20 years at least.

Cheers

Thanks for that mate.

The movie certainly WAS a blast from the past.

King Idris was in power and British forces were stationed in the God-forsaken dump !
farao
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steve jones
Capt
Capt


Number of posts : 210
Age : 64
Localisation : Christchurch, NZ
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : AAC Carlisle, Bielefeld, Werl, Munster, Arborfield
Registration date : 2008-04-08

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 01:06

we had an RCM in Bielefeld, Regimental Corporal Major. some cav regt i think
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recce83
Capt
Capt


Number of posts : 201
Age : 77
Localisation : Peachland British Columbia, Canada
Cap Badge : Black Watch of Canada
Places Served : 4 CIBG Soest and Werl 1957-1965, Camp Borden, Camp Gagetown
Registration date : 2009-06-04

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 01:31

Hope I'm not coming across as the family know-it-all here (as usual). He was probably in the Life Guards or Blues and Royals where the name sergeant is never used. As I had it explained to me once, the name "sergeant" is synonymous with "servant" and in the Household Cavalry a senior NCO or WO is nobody's servant. Thus they name their senior NCOs and WOs as Corporal of Horse, Staff Corporal/ Squadron Quartermaster Corporal, Squadron Corporal Major and Regimental Corporal Major.

Now I have a question: I know that a RAOC Conductor with the red border on his WO 1 badge is the highest appointment in the army. My question is: why and what are his duties in the RAOC. Also do they still have that appointment now that it's the RLC?
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 09:08

Blowing my own trumpet here, I think that I mentioned once before that my Son finished up as a WO2 in the Life Guards. His final appointment was that of Farrier Major, his title was Farrier Quartermaster Corporal. Recce83, there are 12 Conductors in the RLC at the moment, their chosen specialised subjects are Pet Op, Ammo Tech, Chef, Mov Con, Navigator and Log Spec. I don't think they actually do a lot!! Laughing Laughing
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 960
Age : 66
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 10:20

You are correct Recce but it was Queen Victoria who would not allow her personal soldiers to be known as servants, hence corporals of horse etc.

She also said there was no such things as lesbians as well and and wouldn't sign the white paper or whatever it was at the time. That is why it was never a criminal offence as with gay men.

Nosey cow wasn't she?
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jim
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1291
Localisation : Sutton Coldfield
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Dad, Hamburg, Bad Oeynhausen, Iserlohn, Bury, Osnabruck, Worcester. Me Detmold, Bielefeld, NI, HK
Registration date : 2008-01-03

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 10:43

Yes Recce, the RLC have taken the Cdr appointment on. A Cdr has the same job roles as a WOI SSM. I was an SSM and would have still worked in the Systems Analyst role had I been appointed Cdr.

I knew an RCM in the Life Guards in Detmold, and a CPL of Horse Very Happy
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 10:52

Teabag wrote:
You are correct Recce but it was Queen Victoria who would not allow her personal soldiers to be known as servants, hence corporals of horse etc.

She also said there was no such things as lesbians as well and and wouldn't sign the white paper or whatever it was at the time. That is why it was never a criminal offence as with gay men.

Nosey cow wasn't she?


Teabag, I think that it was also Queen Victoria who ordered the repositioning of the Badges of Rank on the Greatcoats of the Brigade of Guards from the upper arm to the lower arm, apparently when she looked out of the window at Buck House on Guard Mounting she couldn't see the ranks. Not only was she a nosey cow but she should have gone to Specsavers! What a Face
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 11:09



Well one thing's certain, Teabag will have company when the pair of you are locked up in The Tower ! queen
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 11:47

Ha Ha! Very Happy
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Dolmetscher
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 130
Age : 82
Localisation : Bedfordshire
Cap Badge : RAPC
Places Served : Devizes, HMS Ariel, Winchester, Mönchen-gladbach, Osnabrück, N. Ireland, Ashton-u-Lyne
Registration date : 2010-11-07

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 12:16

I had the honour of being, for a short time (about 2 minutes) the only trooper in the R.A.P.C. It happened like this. I had been thrown into a cell at Imphal Barracks, Osnabrück, for imbibing a little too much the previous evening. As a result, I was up in front of the C.O. of the 16/5th Lancers next morning to have my horoscope read.
After hearing the evidence, he sentenced me to be reduced to the rank of trooper. Fortunately, the RSM, Rocky Knight, realised the mistake, and whispered in the C.O.'s ear. The error was then corrected, and I was sentenced once more, this time reduced to the rank of private.
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 960
Age : 66
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 13:27

Dolmetscher wrote:
I had the honour of being, for a short time (about 2 minutes) the only trooper in the R.A.P.C. It happened like this. I had been thrown into a cell at Imphal Barracks, Osnabrück, for imbibing a little too much the previous evening. As a result, I was up in front of the C.O. of the 16/5th Lancers next morning to have my horoscope read.
After hearing the evidence, he sentenced me to be reduced to the rank of trooper. Fortunately, the RSM, Rocky Knight, realised the mistake, and whispered in the C.O.'s ear. The error was then corrected, and I was sentenced once more, this time reduced to the rank of private.

You got busted for having a few beers? We are not amused!
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Hardrations
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1017
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 13:43


Was it this kind of beer?

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dandc
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 382
Age : 66
Localisation : gateshead
Cap Badge : 15/19H.ARMY AIR CORPS
Places Served : tidworth, fallingbostle, detmold, hongkong, minden
Registration date : 2009-05-22

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 14:22

PS the most sienior appointment in the british army for WO1 is in fact the accademy sgt maj at sandhurst.
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 14:32

The three most senior warrant officer appointments in the British Army are generally considered to be, in descending order of seniority, the Conductor RLC, Academy Sergeant Major, and the Garrison Sergeant Major, London District, although there is some debate about their precedence within the army.

http://www.alanharding.com/Military/ranks/armyappointments.html

Pick the bones out of that.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 15:12

Dolmetscher wrote:
I had the honour of being, for a short time (about 2 minutes) the only trooper in the R.A.P.C. It happened like this. I had been thrown into a cell at Imphal Barracks, Osnabrück, for imbibing a little too much the previous evening. As a result, I was up in front of the C.O. of the 16/5th Lancers next morning to have my horoscope read.
After hearing the evidence, he sentenced me to be reduced to the rank of trooper. Fortunately, the RSM, Rocky Knight, realised the mistake, and whispered in the C.O.'s ear. The error was then corrected, and I was sentenced once more, this time reduced to the rank of private.



Disgraceful behaviour, Soldiers drinking! Whatever next, Sailors fighting? affraid
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Dolmetscher
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 130
Age : 82
Localisation : Bedfordshire
Cap Badge : RAPC
Places Served : Devizes, HMS Ariel, Winchester, Mönchen-gladbach, Osnabrück, N. Ireland, Ashton-u-Lyne
Registration date : 2010-11-07

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 15:25

[quote="Teabag"]
Dolmetscher wrote:


You got busted for having a few beers? We are not amused!

Teabag, I was out of my head. I had downed a bottle of whiskey throughout the day, and climbed into the back of a
three-tonner which was on its way to some ski-ing centre. They hauled me out at the guard-room and locked me up.
I managed to get hold of the cell key while the door was open, and locked myself in. An officer then turned up
and I told him I would only open the door if I was allowed to go home. They let me go home, but I paid the price next morning.
Kept my nose clean, after that. Got my tapes back when I was posted to Lisburn. Finished up with Exemplary on my discharge papers thanks to the CO at Ashton-under-Lyne. He had a quiet word with Records. I was very fortunate.
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recce83
Capt
Capt


Number of posts : 201
Age : 77
Localisation : Peachland British Columbia, Canada
Cap Badge : Black Watch of Canada
Places Served : 4 CIBG Soest and Werl 1957-1965, Camp Borden, Camp Gagetown
Registration date : 2009-06-04

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 18:38

Teabag wrote:
You are correct Recce but it was Queen Victoria who would not allow her personal soldiers to be known as servants, hence corporals of horse etc.

She also said there was no such things as lesbians as well and and wouldn't sign the white paper or whatever it was at the time. That is why it was never a criminal offence as with gay men.

Nosey cow wasn't she?

She also was the one who imposed two-a-day inspections on the Household Cavalry due to something that displeased her on a morning inspection according to the TV series "The Queen's Cavalry". If that wasn't bad enough, the punishment became a tradition still practiced today, despite the fact the original sinner has long since passed on to better (or worse) things.

I just read a piece in a book yesterday quoting her son, Prince Albert, Prince of Wales. Apparently he and his mother were frequently at odds and he once remarked after attending a church service that it was one thing to talk of an Eternal Father but quite another to have an eternal mother.

I don't know if I can be extradited to spend time in The Tower with Teabag and Shelldrake, but if so, I hope they serve a good pint of bitter.

Thank you to all the lads who helped with my queries about appointments. I was also glad to learn the reason for the Guards wearing their chevrons on the lower sleeve of their great coats. Now, can someone tell me why they wear rifle regiment-style black and red chevrons on said great coats? Is it because it matches the grey colour of the great coat? Or did the old queen lay that one on as well for some obscure reason?

Cheers.
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 19:59


Therein lies madness, Recce 83 !

There is so much tradition and so many regimental variations, you'll end up tearing your hair out.

In the Queen's Own Hussars you had to call a S/Sgt "Sarn't Major". When addressing the CO you had to call him "Colonel". The Queen Mother was our Colonel of the Regiment, if (in the unlikely event) you were speaking to her she was to be addressed as "Colonel".

The Royal Welsh Fusiliers used to wear a piece of black ribbon hanging from the back of their collars. It was to prevent the tar from their queue (pigtail) from staining their uniform. Being stationed in the Caribbean they never received the order to remove the queue . . . and so it goes on.

Walk away mate . . .walk away ! pale
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 20:12

Recce, I can vouch for the fact that the the Yeomen Wardens have a very well appointed Mess within the Tower, if I am summoned first I will get them in. As to why the Brigade of Guards wear red and black chevrons, I have no idea, perhaps it's aesthetically pleasing.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 20:15

Why are the Blues and Royals permitted to salute when not wearing headdress? Crying or Very sad
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 960
Age : 66
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 20:28

Shelldrake wrote:
Why are the Blues and Royals permitted to salute when not wearing headdress? Crying or Very sad

Caught me out that one. Just out of basic and home on satisfied soldier. They were recruiting and I was given the job (get the sprog out of here) of being their guide around town. They saluted so I saluted. They laughed!
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 20:29

brum wrote:


I've just been watching the beginning of the movie "Ice cold in Alex".

In the opening titles Harry Andrews is cast as a "MSM" and he wears the RSM's coat of arms.

Can any of you RASC/RCT blokes tell me what "MSM" stands for ?

Did you also notice towards the very end of the movie when the MP's were driving away the prisoner, that there was a Land Rover (looks like a Mk 9 ) parked on the square?
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Guest



PostSubject: Re: Rank peculiar to regiment   3/3/2011, 20:46

Queen Victoria was so fascinated with the uniform worn by the Zouaves of the French Army, in Algeria that she commanded that one of her regiments must be out fitted in that uniform. That honour fell on the West India Regiment, which was part of the British Army. To this day the uniform is worn in the Jamaica and the Barbados Defence Forces, mainly by Bandsmen.
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