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 Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases

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Tim Hale
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Number of posts : 1
Registration date : 2012-09-20

PostSubject: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   20/9/2012, 20:47

Hi,

Rather than start with a plea for help, let me introduce myself.

Ex-RN, served full stretch, now MoD supporting Apache wherever it is deployed, rather than use an anonymous moniker, I am Tim Hale (also my username) and will help with any dark blue questions.

But I am looking for images, information etc. about rail facilities at BAOR/RAF bases so that I can help others understand how the logistics was served by rail. If I can find any information, I will share it with others within the forum.

My only connection with the BAOR was a loan-draft to Aviation Wkshps Detmold and they got rid of me to RAF Gatow so I could look after their Scout and once we lobbed into RAF Wildenrath for a jolly.

Thanks in advance

Tim
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JPW
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1028
Age : 76
Localisation : Berkshire
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg Ploen Lippstadt Hamm Wetter Minden Munster Bielefeldt Dusseldorf
Registration date : 2008-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   20/9/2012, 22:44

Tim

Welcome

Recognise your name from the German Railway Forum site.

There are a number of railway enthusiasts who are members of this site and can provide authoritive answers to niche questions relating to a specific era or area.

The subject is vast and whilst the highwater mark of the British military railway system was the period 1945-52 significant passenger use continued until the introduction of airtrooping in the early 1960s. The Berliner continued till the end of the Cold War.

Similarly in the 1940s/50s rail was the preferred method of freight distribution with a significant number of barracks having their own siding from a convenient DB controlled line. Dedicated trains were often provided to move tanks and other large vehicles at the start and end of major exercises or to and from their home barracks to Hohne or Munsterlager for Annual Regimental Firing Camps.

Key topics might include
BAOR Troop Trains (initially from the Channel Ports, briefly Cuxhaven, finally Hook of Holland)
The internal BAOR Passenger train network 1945-47
The Berliner (including British military freight traffic)
The School Trains 1947-72
The Detmold Military Railway
The BAOR Ambulance Trains
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bigmal
Maj
Maj
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Number of posts : 296
Age : 59
Localisation : Worksop, Notts
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E
Places Served : Fallingbostal, NI, Hohne, Fallingbostal, again.
Registration date : 2012-03-30

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   21/9/2012, 16:35

We had a rail head at Fallingbostal when i was there.

Previously used as a dropping off point for Belsen Camp, across the ranges.

It was mainly used for the mass movement of AFV`s that were going onto the ranges, usually the Yanks and their M60`s. (The Abrams wasn`t about back then.)

I believe it was the loading up point for Tanks going to the Balkans in the late 90`s too.
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gingerjim
Col
Col


Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   21/9/2012, 19:53

in the old german coffee factory that was rhine sub depot 15 abod raoc in the 50s there was a hugh railway complex , mind you it was a very big old german factory , just about everything imaginable was stored at rhine sub depot , i was a rp for a while and part of our duties was to find out how big equipment like centre and turret lathes and other heavy machinery was being purloined from the depot , i was patroling one day and it hit me , no bugger ever searched the goods trains when they left the depot , we searched cars trucks the bloody postman and everybody else but not the obvious trains , a word in the csms ear and job done , losses from the depot fell dramatically , the german civilian workers involved were not happy bunnies , ginger
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gingerjim
Col
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Number of posts : 487
Cap Badge : raoc
Places Served : blackdown brackley , belgium . viersen
Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   21/9/2012, 19:56

the military trains from hook of holland to germany were still in use in 1959 when i got demobbed , lovely trains very civilised , wonderful restaurant cars , ginger
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Shelldrake
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   22/9/2012, 08:21

gingerjim wrote:
in the old german coffee factory that was rhine sub depot 15 abod raoc in the 50s there was a hugh railway complex , mind you it was a very big old german factory , just about everything imaginable was stored at rhine sub depot , i was a rp for a while and part of our duties was to find out how big equipment like centre and turret lathes and other heavy machinery was being purloined from the depot , i was patroling one day and it hit me , no bugger ever searched the goods trains when they left the depot , we searched cars trucks the bloody postman and everybody else but not the obvious trains , a word in the csms ear and job done , losses from the depot fell dramatically , the german civilian workers involved were not happy bunnies , ginger



Did you think that they had been listening to Johnnie Cash singing "One Piece at a Time"? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIuoOKIqD_E
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Cliffo
WOII
WOII


Number of posts : 97
Age : 83
Localisation : Spain
Cap Badge : RASC
Places Served : Farnborough, Aldershot, Sennelager, Duisdurg, Cyprus - Platres, Nicosia
Registration date : 2012-11-28

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   11/2/2013, 15:30

helloTim,

I have just come accross your post.

I was with 113 petroleum storage platoon and 4 petroleum laboratory RASC 1n 1953/54. in part of a large German bulk fuel storage depot on the banks of the Rhine in Duisburg and the army had been there at least since 1947 - I believe they moved to the Brugen area in about 1956. Our main task was testing and supplying AVTUR and AVTAG to RAFs Bruggen, Wildenrath and Wahn and others. It was sent out in large railway tankers from a railhead within the depot.I remember we also had one RAF junior technician laboratory assistant attached to make sure that we were sending out the right stuff!!!
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Les Pattenden
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Number of posts : 473
Age : 71
Localisation : Hampshire
Cap Badge : RCT
Places Served : Aldershot, Marchwood, Longmoor, Dusseldorf,Munster,Ratingen,Longmoor
Registration date : 2011-11-12

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   11/2/2013, 21:19

Hi Tim

We did have a siding at the back of Roy Barracks in Ratingen, it ran along the back of the Map Depot and MFO Depot, purely for moving MFO onwards, it would be delivered to us by road from Holland then sent on by Army Lorries or Railway, that was still being used until early 70s

Les
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brian beckett
SSgt/CSgt
SSgt/CSgt


Number of posts : 47
Age : 78
Cap Badge : rasc
Places Served : Tower of London(initially in Royal Fusiliers) Aldershot, Sennelager & RAF Bruggen
Registration date : 2009-02-04

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   22/2/2013, 19:25

Cliffo wrote:
helloTim,

I have just come accross your post.

I was with 113 petroleum storage platoon and 4 petroleum laboratory RASC 1n 1953/54. in part of a large German bulk fuel storage depot on the banks of the Rhine in Duisburg and the army had been there at least since 1947 - I believe they moved to the Brugen area in about 1956. Our main task was testing and supplying AVTUR and AVTAG to RAFs Bruggen, Wildenrath and Wahn and others. It was sent out in large railway tankers from a railhead within the depot.I remember we also had one RAF junior technician laboratory assistant attached to make sure that we were sending out the right stuff!!!

It moved to Arsbech (not sure of correct spelling) just down the road from RAF Bruggen.
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Cliffo
WOII
WOII


Number of posts : 97
Age : 83
Localisation : Spain
Cap Badge : RASC
Places Served : Farnborough, Aldershot, Sennelager, Duisdurg, Cyprus - Platres, Nicosia
Registration date : 2012-11-28

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   23/2/2013, 10:38


Thanks for that, Brian. I came accross an old mate from 113 PSP at Borden depot in 1956
when I was re-called for the Suez debacle and he told me they had moved but I couldn't
remember exactly where .
Sounds like you had a really cushy number as a RASC clerk with the RAF - what on earth
were you doing with them!

Cliffo







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brian beckett
SSgt/CSgt
SSgt/CSgt


Number of posts : 47
Age : 78
Cap Badge : rasc
Places Served : Tower of London(initially in Royal Fusiliers) Aldershot, Sennelager & RAF Bruggen
Registration date : 2009-02-04

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   23/2/2013, 15:05

If you read my blurb in the RAF section of the index under Bruggen you will see exactly
what I got up to.

On reflection I think the unit was 6 Petroleum Depot. It served as QM for our small unit
at Bruggen.

Tuff titty you were recalled for the Suez crisis. Have you come across either of the
following books? The Call Up by Tom Hickman, or National Service by Trevor Royle.
Both authors during their researches came across evidence that a number of re-call
notices for Suez were returned notated with 'Bollocks!'

I was notified that I could be recalled at the time of the Berlin Wall crisis in 1961 but
thankfully no reservists were needed. I don't think I would have had the nerve to
tell them to get stuffed.
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   24/2/2013, 13:01

Slightly irrelevant, but all this has reminded me that when 32 LAA Bty used rail flat trucks to move their Champs to Todendorf, on the Baltic, for layer classification in the winter of '56, all went alright until they unloaded. Batteries, electric, wouldn't turn over cold engines. "Tow start them" said he in charge. More bother............ coolant had frozen in water jackets, iced up impeller pumps were knackered.
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Shelldrake
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   24/2/2013, 14:41

Did you not put a Driver behind the wheel of each vehicle for the journey? They would have in my day (After we finished sweeping the leaves and painting the Guterbahnhof)! Laughing
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   25/2/2013, 10:21

Shelldrake wrote:
Did you not put a Driver behind the wheel of each vehicle for the journey?

Wot? 500 km in snow & ice....... ? Champs went with the L60s by rail. And we had a BC who said a Champ is a field car, no hoods will be erected, side screens will be left in the MT store. And when we had a puncture, we found the spare was tack-welded in position. To stop it being nicked, they said. There was some advanced thinking in 32 Bty.
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PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   25/2/2013, 10:40

We never had sides or hoods on our champs.Not that it bothered me.I had a nice cosyTEV
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Shelldrake
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   25/2/2013, 11:10

cartav wrote:
Shelldrake wrote:
Did you not put a Driver behind the wheel of each vehicle for the journey?

Wot? 500 km in snow & ice....... ?



500Km? That would have been done in Shirt Sleeve Order in our lot! Durin' the war...................
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PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   25/2/2013, 17:35

Saftie!!!! Bare buff for the scaleys
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   25/2/2013, 17:58

Shelldrake wrote:


500Km? That would have been done in Shirt Sleeve Order in our lot! Durin' the war...................


Yeah, yeah....... Anybody can be uncomfortable without much trouble.....
I can't help worrying about the constant danger from electrocution and scalding tea that Gordon endured when we were all safely tucked up in our gun pits.......
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   27/2/2013, 11:43

Not BAOR perhaps, but rail related..............

When we finished an 8 week stint upgrading and lengthening a track up a NW Highland glen, it was time to shift all the additional plant we'd acquired back to various depots down south. Regt considered the complexities of form filling and loading to effect the various rail journeys might be tasks too difficult for simple Sappers, so they arranged for these to be done by the Rag & Oil boys.

Two RAOC senior NCOs duly arrived, they opened up brief cases, extracted the paperwork.
and launched into instructions about how the various bits should be filled in. That took no
longer than an hour, hardly time for them to enjoy a brew. Then, contradictory to the advice we'd been given, they scorned our generous offer of tented accommodation and took their leave, moving off rapidly on what would be an abortive attempt to locate the fleshpots of Ross & Cromarty.

So we loaded the flat trucks at the Kyle of Loch Alsh railhead, moved the rolling stock about with the smallest tracked tractor we had and made sure all bits for one depot weren't mixed up with those for other destinations. But when we applied ourselves to the paperwork, it became clear that we'd not been given enough forms. That was a problem, the BR element were making noises about wanting their rolling stock unloaded. Then we remembered there was an RN establishment in the vicinity, they might use the same docs. And so they did, day was saved..

It took about three months for the rocket despatched from above to land at Sqn HQ. The forms we'd filled in so carefully were, indeed, similar but not precisely so. These had "Admiralty" in the top line, questions were being asked about why the Army's kit movements were being charged to R. Navy estimates. RN on Loch Duich were in trouble, RHQ were
confused, we managed to sort it out.
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Mike_2817
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Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   5/3/2013, 13:58

One minor point, Rail Movements and visits as above was a RCT Movements task not RAOC 'Rag & Oil'

Most major RAOC Depots did have there own railheads within the depot area or nearby (Sennelarger Railhead for Depot 90 being behind the strip is an example) and we then did our own paperwork anliaiseded with the local railways as well.

In a case of a major rail move as described above the RCT Movements bods should have supervised the loading, completing of the paperwork, and lodging it with the raiulway.

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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 87
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   5/3/2013, 14:17

Mike_2817 wrote:
One minor point, Rail Movements and visits as above was a RCT Movements task not RAOC 'Rag & Oil' ........... .

Sorry about that ! It was thirty odd years ago & I didn't want to cast aspersions on the brave lads in RAOC.......

But whoever it was, the two nominated for the task has no intention of hanging around, they skipped off smartly after a morning's consultation. Must admit we had a bit of a giggle when we thought of all the paperwork going backwards & forwards for three months in MOD.
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Shelldrake
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   5/3/2013, 14:23

I thought the original Movers were RE?


Last edited by Shelldrake on 5/3/2013, 16:40; edited 1 time in total
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Mike_2817
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Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
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Registration date : 2009-08-27

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   5/3/2013, 16:17

They were, But as part of the Mcload report, all Movements & Railways from RE & Transport from RASC went to form the RCT in 1965

While all Stores responsibilities (ie Combat Supplies, Bakers, Butchers & Staff Clerks) of the RASC went to the RAOC also in 1965

Then of course RCT, RAOC, RPC & ACC & RE Posties merged in 1993 to form the RLC

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Shelldrake
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   5/3/2013, 16:49

When I was the MTO in Gutersloh it was part of my responsibilities to arrange for 'A' Veh movement by rail, this included units to and from Exercise areas. My point of contact was a guy by the name of Werner Siebe MBE, 29 Tpt & Mov Regt, he had been employed with MC in Bielefeld since 1953 - what he didn't know about Movements wasn't worth knowing.
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Cliffo
WOII
WOII


Number of posts : 97
Age : 83
Localisation : Spain
Cap Badge : RASC
Places Served : Farnborough, Aldershot, Sennelager, Duisdurg, Cyprus - Platres, Nicosia
Registration date : 2012-11-28

PostSubject: Re: Rail facilities at BAOR and RAF bases   5/3/2013, 16:53

Where did the petroleum fitters and petroleum laboratory assistants go from

the RASC when they were re-organised? Anyone know.
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