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 Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?

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Les Pattenden
Col
Col


Number of posts : 473
Age : 71
Localisation : Hampshire
Cap Badge : RCT
Places Served : Aldershot, Marchwood, Longmoor, Dusseldorf,Munster,Ratingen,Longmoor
Registration date : 2011-11-12

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 10:20

I did learn some things the hard way, I had been posted to Marchwood for Heavy Crone Ops Course and had decided early on that it was not for me, whilst waiting for a move to Clerical I was given a job with the SSM, worked hard and got on well, was seeing a young lady in Bath at the time and buses and trains from Southampton were few and far between, after speaking to SSM, he said as long as my work was done I could get away early on the Friday, I finished at about 3 and got changed, as I was leaving camp the Sergeant called me across and said he wanted everyone on parade on the Saturday Morning, I explained that the SSM had given me permission to go, went and caught the bus. on the Monday however it was a bit of a shock to find I was on Orders, absent without leave, would you believe 1 weeks stoppage of pay (never did find out where that money goes) gave my explanation and quickly learned IT IS THE LAST ORDER THAT COUNTS

Les
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 86
Localisation : s. yorks
Cap Badge : RA (ns) RA, R.Sigs, RE ( TAVR)
Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 10:54

Les Pattenden wrote:
I did learn some things the hard way, I had been posted to Marchwood for Heavy Crone Ops Course................. I was seeing a young lady in Bath........

Les

Misprint Les ? I take if the old crone you were being trained to handle and the young lady in the bath , weren't one and the same......... ?
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Les Pattenden
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Col


Number of posts : 473
Age : 71
Localisation : Hampshire
Cap Badge : RCT
Places Served : Aldershot, Marchwood, Longmoor, Dusseldorf,Munster,Ratingen,Longmoor
Registration date : 2011-11-12

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 11:02

Cartav

I think the old crone turns out to be me lol

Les
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rucjock21
Maj
Maj


Number of posts : 279
Localisation : Glesga
Cap Badge : The Jocks
Places Served : Everywhere.
Registration date : 2012-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 12:57

As I had served in the Jocks for most of my service I witnessed snobbery in a grand scale.Over heard a Major speaking on the telephone to someone and I heard him say Yes we have a good mess but unfortunately there are a few rankers within.Now,if that was not snobbery then I'll eat ma bunnet. Nearly all the Jock regiments have officers who come from privileged backgrounds eg Lairds and Lady's, Clan Chief's and Politicians as well as Royalty.Some of those mind you were very nice people and they certainly looked after their troops.One Captain in my unit let his authority go to his head.I saw him standing in the cookhouse queue one time and he was inspecting the troops eating utensils and asking them to hold out their hands so that he could see that they had washed their hands before coming to meals.Some of the officers thought that you had to look after them on exercise by making their meals for them whilst he was away doing other things.He took the troops for granted in that they were there to "SERVE" him.I always wondered why those officers who came up through the ranks never had the privilege to command companies or even battalions.Perhaps some of you can prove me wrong on that.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 13:55

A Scottish Colonel in the RCT once told me that to be an Officer in a Scottish regiment one had to be English and own parts of Scotland.
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 75
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 14:06

rucjock21 wrote:
As I had served in the Jocks for most of my service I witnessed snobbery in a grand scale.Over heard a Major speaking on the telephone to someone and I heard him say Yes we have a good mess but unfortunately there are a few rankers within.Now,if that was not snobbery then I'll eat ma bunnet. Nearly all the Jock regiments have officers who come from privileged backgrounds eg Lairds and Lady's, Clan Chief's and Politicians as well as Royalty.Some of those mind you were very nice people and they certainly looked after their troops.One Captain in my unit let his authority go to his head.I saw him standing in the cookhouse queue one time and he was inspecting the troops eating utensils and asking them to hold out their hands so that he could see that they had washed their hands before coming to meals.Some of the officers thought that you had to look after them on exercise by making their meals for them whilst he was away doing other things.He took the troops for granted in that they were there to "SERVE" him.I always wondered why those officers who came up through the ranks never had the privilege to command companies or even battalions.Perhaps some of you can prove me wrong on that.

Well, our Colonel in QOH had a noticeable "working class accent". When I asked people about it, I was told that when said colonel had asked his father if he could go into the army he was told that he could but would have to go in as a private soldier and attain the rank of sergeant, before applying to be an officer.
It must've worked, he was a good Colonel.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 14:14

We had one of the 7th regt guys posted to us. He had been commissioned from Sgt and joined us on his first posting as a Lt, the Battery Commander informed him on his interview that, as far as he (The BC) was concerned, he was "Neither one thing or another". Had he remained in the Ranks he would definitely pulled WO1 and then been commisioned, he stayed in long enough to qualify for a pension, then left. Bit of a waste really.
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rucjock21
Maj
Maj


Number of posts : 279
Localisation : Glesga
Cap Badge : The Jocks
Places Served : Everywhere.
Registration date : 2012-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 14:22

Could be true statement Shelldrake.They all spoke rather posh English type and owned vast amounts of land in Scotland.Now we know why they had the Highland clearances,they needed it for their sheep and hence the word sheepsha**ers in some of the Jock units. Very Happy Very Happy
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Dee Z
WOI
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Places Served : Pembroke Dock, Lippstadt,Plymouth, Middle east, Singapore
Registration date : 2011-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 19:39

1964ish on Lüneburg Heath I was asked by my BC if I would bat for him. Off I went on the first day at 0630 to get his warm water for his morning wash. After another day or two of this I told him I had a job keeping my own kit clean let alone his so never carried on. This guy never got a lot of respect from us and a few years later I paid a visit to my old regiment the battery was having a get together in the main cook house I spoke to some of the guys I had served with but never got an invite having spent about 4 years in that unit. One door shuts another opens this comes to mind once an apprentice always an apprentice. Leaving that unit opened more doors.

Sheeldrake what happened to C-T ?
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Dulaigh
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 124
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Places Served : Catterick Newark Aldershot 201Shorncliffe WinterbourneGunner TOS SHARJAH Bunde 249 Singapore NE Thailand Aldershot Catterick
Registration date : 2012-03-19

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 20:41

Fortunately never encountered bullying from SNCO's or Ossifers in service 58/67. However did meet an embryonic attempt by a small group. I stopped that in its infancy. Lesson learnt. However, It would be difficult to deal with institutionally adopted bullying such as was reported at Deepcut etc..
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Les Pattenden
Col
Col


Number of posts : 473
Age : 71
Localisation : Hampshire
Cap Badge : RCT
Places Served : Aldershot, Marchwood, Longmoor, Dusseldorf,Munster,Ratingen,Longmoor
Registration date : 2011-11-12

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 20:49

Yes I must say it was a very worrying time when the suicides were reported at Purbright, seems there were several in a short time, I bet like me there were lots of ex soldiers wondering what the truth was, seen so many things hidden in the Army

Les
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Wilf
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 314
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Places Served : Bicester-Soltau-Canada-Kineton-Paderborn-Osnabruck (Inc Gulf 1) Donnington-Civy Strasse.
Registration date : 2008-10-22

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 22:25

During Gulf 1 a WO headbutted a sapper and I mean really nutted him for not removing his headdress while he was sitting on the sand eating his scoff out of a mess tin, this was just before the ground war started. He did this in front of many of the sappers mates, some of whom promised that scores would be settled when the ground war started. And there were one or two who were mad enough to do it. In the event he [The offending WO] was shipped out prior to hostilities, I think to Cyprus, but we never saw him again.
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Wilf
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Registration date : 2008-10-22

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 22:28

Les Pattenden wrote:
Yes I must say it was a very worrying time when the suicides were reported at Purbright, seems there were several in a short time, I bet like me there were lots of ex soldiers wondering what the truth was, seen so many things hidden in the Army

Les

The suicides/murders at Deepcut were something of a concern.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3743131.stm
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Les Pattenden
Col
Col


Number of posts : 473
Age : 71
Localisation : Hampshire
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Places Served : Aldershot, Marchwood, Longmoor, Dusseldorf,Munster,Ratingen,Longmoor
Registration date : 2011-11-12

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 22:43

Very much a concern although I seem to have got it wrong and quoted Pirbright when it was Deepcut


Les
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Hardrations
Let Gen
Let Gen


Number of posts : 1016
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   1/3/2013, 22:46

Besides acts of shame by those in command, there were those acts we covered up so as not to let others know.

The one I well remember involved a Major from the Canadian Guards and I.
In the winter of 1970 I was assigned to this Major to be his Driver/Op while he was Ex.Comd. for a scheme involving Militia/Reserve Officers. It involved moving various units about using a vehicle for each unit in the Petawawa training area and in the civilian side of the country. Well the Major got thoroughly pissed on Scotch and passed out. So I drove him back to the Ex. H.Q.'s , called out the RCR Capt who was 2 i/c of the Ex. and had a quiet word with him. Took the good Major back to his quarters and poured him into his bed (actually pushed him into his room and took off). There was just no way I was going to let the Militia/Reserves know what happened. The Major was a WW 2 veteran so who knows what demons he was fighting. Incidentally I was informed I had done an outstanding job and he would like me to work witlh him again. I nipped that in the bud very quickly.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   2/3/2013, 11:10

Wilf wrote:
Les Pattenden wrote:
Yes I must say it was a very worrying time when the suicides were reported at Purbright, seems there were several in a short time, I bet like me there were lots of ex soldiers wondering what the truth was, seen so many things hidden in the Army

Les

The suicides/murders at Deepcut were something of a concern.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3743131.stm


I worked at Deepcut from June 1987 until March 2011. To say that discipline was lax would be an understatement - one of the many incidents that springs to mind was a DGOS (Maj Gen) being arrested for shoplifting from Woolworths! Duco per exemplo! Rolling Eyes
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Shelldrake
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FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   2/3/2013, 11:31

Dee Z wrote:
1964ish on Lüneburg Heath I was asked by my BC if I would bat for him. Off I went on the first day at 0630 to get his warm water for his morning wash. After another day or two of this I told him I had a job keeping my own kit clean let alone his so never carried on. This guy never got a lot of respect from us and a few years later I paid a visit to my old regiment the battery was having a get together in the main cook house I spoke to some of the guys I had served with but never got an invite having spent about 4 years in that unit. One door shuts another opens this comes to mind once an apprentice always an apprentice. Leaving that unit opened more doors.

Sheeldrake what happened to C-T ?


I think he retired as a Major, probably became an RO like the majority of them - no working for a living for that lot! Laughing
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


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Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   2/3/2013, 11:33

[quote="rucjock21"] I heard a Major speaking on the telephone to someone and I heard him say Yes we have a good mess but unfortunately there are a few RANKERS within. [quote]

Maybe you misheard........... Delete Romeo insert Whisky !
................................................................

Quote :
None who came up through the ranks ever had the privilege to command companies or even battalions..........

Might have been an age thing in teeth armed units. By the time they'd climbed the ladder they might not be considered to be up to it physically...... But I came across technical officers ( IG s and such) who'd taken commissions and got a majority and more. And you might consider that, equally, there aren't many plummy voiced and well connected chaps in the ranks, or SNCOs who want to take a pay drop to become subalterns. .

Can't help but take issue with your previous griping about potential officers being university graduates...... There's never been reason to suppose that the better educated or any with rich dads are all officer potential. I have no experience of what happens at intake level now, but I imagine there's still some sort of testing to discover, at least, if a recruit is literate. Having got that out of the way he can be slotted into a position in line with his educational standard, or even brought up to requirements with ACE if his schooling left something to be desired. And more testing for those with higher IQs before being allocated places at Sandhurst. If you've taken in that TV programme, you'll see that it's still possible to be chucked out if the standard isn't reached.

I guess the Scots regiments might be more akin to the Guards down here, or some of the cavalry lads. I would have hated that too, but to be honest, I didn't find too much wrong with the management of the various units with which I served. Agreed, there were one or two pillocks with pips on their shoulders.but there were a hell of a lot more in the lower orders.
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rucjock21
Maj
Maj


Number of posts : 279
Localisation : Glesga
Cap Badge : The Jocks
Places Served : Everywhere.
Registration date : 2012-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   2/3/2013, 13:28

Cartav,I served with three Jock battalions during my time and I must agree with some of your comments about the management of the units.One particular battalion, The Gordon Highlanders, had some really nice officers who treated you with respect.I found their senior ranks similar.The RSM in particular was my next door neighbour in quarters and he was really down to earth when speaking to him. My own unit was a totally different kettle of fish.Some of the officers were so unapproachable you avoided them like the plague.You just went about your job and kept your head down as some of them just would not discuss any problem with you as they were always right and you were always wrong in their eyes.Those officers who had come up through the ranks were different people all together.They knew how the ordinary soldier went about their duties and they knew what they were thinking as they had done the same as a young soldier themselves,something that the Sandhurst/Mons officers did not possess.You say that there were one or two pillocks with pips.I experienced one or two pillocks with crowns on their shoulders and the way they spoke to you they thought they had crowns on their heads.Yes a lot more pillocks in the lower classes but that is their privilege as some of them were out of their depths in their ranks and should not have been promoted at all.Only my opinion Cartav.
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Shelldrake
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2981
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   2/3/2013, 14:52

A ex-ranker friend of mine was in a discussion in the Officers Mess with the CO and one or two others, one of the "Others" suggested that a particular Battery Commander (Mine), who was about as much use as an ejection seat on a helicopter should, perhaps, be relieved of his Command. The Commanding Officer was appalled and said "We can't do that, he was educated at Sandhurst!". The BC in question was elevated to local Lt Col and posted as DA to Djakarta - wouldn't do for the education system to be seen to be failing!
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cartav
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 783
Age : 86
Localisation : s. yorks
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Places Served : Oswestry, Tonfanau, Woolwich, Osnabruck, MT School Bordon, Bulford, Manorbier, Hameln, R.Sigs Blandford, RSME Chattenden, Western Highlands.
Registration date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   2/3/2013, 17:15

[quote="rucjock21"] .............Only my opinion Cartav....../quote]

No sweat mate, I can go along with your feelings. I guess in NS, as conscripts, it was somewhat different. Everybody. potential brigadiers and those destined to be GD men for two years, all served together for a time. During induction & tech training, they got to know each other......... I was going to write " slept together " but that might get one two excited.........! OK, there were one or two odd balls who would never get on with anybody, but in the main, if only for a short while, all helped each other out, became united as a team that hated the drill pigs until the last few days when the NCOs showed a human side..

I'm not sure how it works now, maybe potential officers never get chance to get to mix with the less privileged. and that's a shame for both factions.
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gingerjim
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Registration date : 2011-03-21

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   2/3/2013, 19:45

i did my basic training at blackdown which is now called deepcut , in the 50s , i remember during that time 4 young lads commited suicide , one in our block , i always put it down to a few young lads took the queens shilling and were not equipped to deal with army life , it really was bloody tough in those days . but on saying that i knew of mates that did their basic at catterick and they all knew of suicides happening at that garrison . as i said some young lads joined up but just could not cope , the only difference between the deaths at blackdown in the 50s and the deaths in recent years is , in my days most of the poor buggers hung themselves , no way could they get hold of ammo to shoot themselves , why does it seem so easy for lads of today to get hold of weapons and ammo , ps in the 50s most deaths were well covered up ,someone missing yes lad he went home on compassionate leave , that was the story , ginger
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Dulaigh
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Registration date : 2012-03-19

PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   3/3/2013, 21:01

Ginger, I never met even one case in my time. Just shows how localised things can be...gobsmacked.
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pete26
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PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   22/3/2013, 04:43

Seems I have upset at least one ex officer who posts on here.

They don't like criticism.


Derr, we are all civilians now ! silent

No wonder we didn't allow officers out with us on foot patrol in Ulster.
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Wilf
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PostSubject: Re: Shameful acts by officers or senior nco's ?   22/3/2013, 14:15

We had just finished a CQBR at Sennelager, it was summer and very warm. As soon as we had unloaded our weapons we collapsed under the shade of the nearest tree and panting we reached for our water bottles. As we sat there sweat pouring down our faces I saw a subaltern take the water bottle out of a young soldiers hand, I jumped to my feet but as I walked over to him to point out the error of his ways something stopped me in my tracks. The officer took his helmet off and poured the water bottle over his head, at this point we all started laughing. The lazy officer who couldn't be bothered to fill his own water bottle had just poured orange juice all over his head! I'm pleased to say he had every wasp on the area after him.
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