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 Six Months Extra

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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Extentions of National Service   2/10/2009, 13:31

I have been making myself cross-eyed looking at various pieces of information about the extensions to the length of National Service. There are elements of truth in most of the comments about why the period was extended plus, in my own mind, a combination of factors.

I will try not to make this too long (or will split it up) to prevent readers going Sleep , drunken , or looking for high places to fall off. I have only gone back so far, to prevent me from doing any of the previous. There is quite possibly more information further back than I have been connected to this question.

NS was extended in 1950 because of the Korean War, and apparently applied to all NS personnel. As far as I can see, the extension was never removed. I have not found a firm date, as yet, as to when the extension of the 1960's was announced. I presume it was in 1960/61.

The initial decision to end NS was taken in 1957, believe it or not, at which time there were about 50,000 NS personnel still serving.

Various debates, White Papers, reports, etc. in the early 1960's, estimated that the strength of the Army should be around 180,000, with the figure of 165,000 being bandied about. It was also intimated that the strength of BAOR should be 55,000.

The strength of the Army in 1960 was listed as:-

140,300 Regular
18,400 National Service
5,800 Women

The estimate for April 1961 was:-

139,800 Regular
13,300 National Service
6,000 Women

So levels were estimated to drop, rather than increase towards the projected levels.

My own thoughts are that there were a number of factors that influenced the 6 month extension that was announced in the early 1960's.
1. The rising threat from Russia, both in Nuclear and manpower terms, put Germany and the rest of Europe under a shadow.
2. The actions of the East Germans (heavily influenced by the Russians) in Berlin, leading to its division by the Wall.
3. The Kennedy Administration began to concentrate more on conventional forces, rather that a "push button" conflict, leading to a revision in manpower planning.
4. Last, but not least, the shortfall in recruiting into the British Forces especially the Army, leaving many units short of men be they Infantry or Tradesmen/Specialists.

I think I will end "Part 1" there. More to follow.

Please remember that this is only my thoughts on the matter, and interpretation of information I have found.

Paul.
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Paul
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Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Extentions of National Service (Part 2)   2/10/2009, 14:08

Now for some more bits of information gleaned from Hansard.

In June 1961, it was estimated that there were 1,000,000 men still liable for call-up to NS. I did not find a date when it was actually announced that call-up would cease.

In November 1961, there were still around 50,000 NS in the Army (at odds with the statement on troop levels estimated for April 1961 in previous post). It was said that those due to be released by 1st April 1961 would not need to be retained (approximately half) provided there was no increase in international tensions.

In December 1961, it was envisaged that, after April 1962, virtually all NS remaining in BAOR would have to be retained. In other theatres those with release dates after April 1962 should be able to be released. Later on, when NS numbers are lower, those in other theatres may have to be kept back and moved to BAOR.

In March 1962, NS serving in BAOR, or due to move there were to consider themselves liable for retention. It was stated that there was no need to retain those being released by 1st August 1962. A couple of days later, it was stated that it was expected that abot 6,000 would be retained in BAOR, 3628 having already been warned with the rest by the end of that month. (This points to a previous announcement about the extension of service)

(Around this period, there were the readings and numerous debates about the Army Reserve Act 1962)

In May 1962 it was stated that there had been 591 appeals against retention, with 104 granted. Also in this month, it was said that good recruiting figures enabled fewer than the 15,000 initially required would be needed. (again at odds with previous statements) Just over 9,000 would be required, with 1,100 coming from outside BAOR.

In June 1962 it was stated that 9,912 had been warned for retention under the Army Reserve Act 1962. There had been 1195 appeals, with 18% approved.

End of Part 2. Tune in later for another thrilling episode.

Paul.
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Paul
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Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Extentions of National Service (Part 3)   2/10/2009, 16:31

In July 1962, it was raised in Parliament that there was rumour circulating in the Far East that those NS due to be discharged in November 1962 were to be moved to Germany by October, with a possible 6 month extension to their service. Mr Profumo referred the member to his statement of November 1961.

Also in July, it was stated that 9,121 had been warned for retention. Of these 2962 were married men - 550 had 1 child, 67 had 2 children, and 2 had 3 or more children. 156 appeals by married men with children were outstanding at this time (the figure of 9,121 was questioned, against the previous figure of 9,912, by another member - the answer given was typical "Minister Speak" designed to baffle. It worked for me Very Happy )

In August 1962, the figure for the number of retentions was back to 9,912. There had been 1764 appeals of which 198 had been granted exemption on the grounds of hardship at that time.

By November 1962, the number of NS retained was 9,200. There had been 2413 appeals, and 623 had been approved up to that time. Others were still outstanding.

Also in 1962 it was announced that under the Army Reserve Act 1962 there were around 100,000 men who had completed NS, who were liable to be recalled to serve for 6 months. This applied for three and a half years, up to sometime in 1966.

There was also a statement in 1961 regarding a National Serviceman who had transferred to the Regulars, and then obtained a Discharge By Purchase. He was recalled to complete the remainder of his National Service.

That is about all the information I have found at the moment, and I think that is about all I will be doing unless something comes to mind, or is glaringly obvious.

As I said, this is information found in the on-line Hansard. These are my notes and interpretation of what I read, and are not to be taken as truly accurate.

Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   2/10/2009, 22:54

The last intake of National Servicemen took place in 1960 and only the crisis surrounding the erection of the Berlin Wall delayed the end of conscription.

http://www.britisharmedforces.org/ns/nat_history.htm
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donald
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Cap Badge : 1st The Royal Dragoons - The Blues and Royals (RHG/D)
Places Served : UK,BOAR,Egypt
Registration date : 2008-04-04

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   3/10/2009, 15:51

Being a regular with many NS men serving with me I can only say they were the best,have we any on here?
------
Don
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PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   9/2/2010, 18:13

Paul,
If I could resurrect this subject for a while.
I've been ploughing through my little book of Army cap badges without a lot of success. It occurs to me that if these Squaddie photos were taken before '58 (and they look like they were) then the cap badge on show could well have been amalgamated into oblivion. My first thought was 7th Hussars, then Intelligence Corps but the nearest I can get is The Lancastrian Volunteers, or one of the Regts. that were amalgamated into it.
The group photo looks like an intake that has done their basic and have just finished a continuation (Trade Training) course. One of them has a single stripe, maybe a course NCO (acting unpaid of course!) They don't have the look of serving soldiers and there's some fearsome-looking berets there!
Those two on their own look like classic "light duties" men, excused everything. Those denims look brand new, I wonder why that one is wearing a tie with shirt sleeve order?
Talking of National Servicemen, I served with them for four years and there were some very clever men amongst them. I was just a "Thick Regular"!
Baz
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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   9/2/2010, 20:24

bazza wrote:
Paul,
If I could resurrect this subject for a while.
I've been ploughing through my little book of Army cap badges without a lot of success. It occurs to me that if these Squaddie photos were taken before '58 (and they look like they were) then the cap badge on show could well have been amalgamated into oblivion. My first thought was 7th Hussars, then Intelligence Corps but the nearest I can get is The Lancastrian Volunteers, or one of the Regts. that were amalgamated into it.
The group photo looks like an intake that has done their basic and have just finished a continuation (Trade Training) course. One of them has a single stripe, maybe a course NCO (acting unpaid of course!) They don't have the look of serving soldiers and there's some fearsome-looking berets there!
Those two on their own look like classic "light duties" men, excused everything. Those denims look brand new, I wonder why that one is wearing a tie with shirt sleeve order?
Talking of National Servicemen, I served with them for four years and there were some very clever men amongst them. I was just a "Thick Regular"!
Baz

Baz,

The Lancashire connection would be relevant, although it was not always sure in the days of NS. This man was a born and bred in the Manchester area.

If, as his daughter has mentioned (and I have not heard from her for a time), he was in Germany in the early 1960's, there were only two "Lancashire" Regiments that were there at the time - 1st Bn The Lancashire Regiment (Hilden) and The Lancashire Fusiliers (Munster).

The only cap badge I can find that is similar, and has Lancashire connections, is the Lancashire Regiment. Saying that, I will probably find out that he no connnection to a Lancashire Regiment during his NS Rolling Eyes

Must try and get hold of the woman ( not that way Suspect )

Paul.
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burgess720
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Number of posts : 122
Registration date : 2008-07-09

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/2/2010, 03:24

donald wrote:
Being a regular with many NS men serving with me I can only say they were the best,have we any on here?
------
Don

Hi all,
Yes I did 2 years; very few really wanted to do NS; I had done a couple of years in the school cadet force, so knew a little [dangerous!!]

From my point of view, the first month at Aldershot [is that spelt with an o or an i?] was basic RE training, then 6 weeks at Cove was better. After 4 months servise I was off to BAOR and all the fun and the luxury accomodation.

I had a great time in BAOR, with a side month in Belgium, got an A2 trade which helped me get a job in civvy street.

Those were good times; and very glad I did the time; a pity I have lost contact with some mates

Cheers
Tony
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ciphers
Maj Gen
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Number of posts : 961
Age : 83
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/2/2010, 06:33

Well after blowing up the photo to just the head's and playing with all sorts of enhancements, it looks as if there are two different badges here .. the one on lefts badge is larger than the guy with the tie, and it appears to have a rectangular coloured backing to it .. and why is the other guy wearing a tie, well he took his jacket off ..

Len (Ciphers)
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PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/2/2010, 10:49

"He took his jacket off"-why didn't I think of that?
Anyway, I've put the bugger on a Fizzer for being improperly dressed-Sah!
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Goldmohur
WOII
WOII


Number of posts : 93
Age : 76
Localisation : Doncaster
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Gutersloh, Duisburg, Bracht, Rheindahlen. Also Non BAOR, Blackdown, Corsham. Shoeburyness, Ty Croes, Aden, Bicester.
Registration date : 2007-03-10

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/2/2010, 13:52

I was a regular Corporal in Duisburg at the time of the retention of the last groups of National Service Men. Memory can of course be faulty, but I recall that the few remaining NS men in our unit were told of their 6 month extension without prior warning. Indeed, I seem to remember one or two weeping with rage and frustration, but then they settling down and getting on with it.

An apocryphal tale in our unit was of a group waiting at Dusseldorf Airport for their flight home when the announcement was made. Having already been on the beer in anticipation of their departure, they ran amok, running up and down the runway with their arms extended before being rounded up and brought back to the barracks.
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ciphers
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Number of posts : 961
Age : 83
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/2/2010, 18:07

Something to do with 'Plank's' pops to mind .. lol

Len (Ciphers)
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PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   12/2/2010, 17:17

Len,
A military heraldry question Sir.
Clearly you have used the cap badge of the Royal Springfield Corpulent Fusiliers as your avatar and most of the objects on it are recognizeable. I know I'm going to regret this but what is the Homeric mascot holding in his right hand?
Wooo Whooo,
Bazza.
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PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   12/2/2010, 23:01

Nothing in the right hand (poor art work).A caduceus in the left
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ciphers
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Number of posts : 961
Age : 83
Localisation : Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada V2S 7C5
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Catterick (1951) - BAOR (1952 -1954)-(Herford - Bunde - Munster) - Japan (Kure) - Korea (Pusan - Seoul) - Cyprus (Nicosia) - Suez Op (1st Guards Brigade) - UK (63 Sigs Regt TA, Southampton)
Registration date : 2008-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   13/2/2010, 06:34

Thats right Gordon a Caduceus is what the thingee is called ... and Bazza we of the Royal Corps can take umbrage Certa Cito mate .. so wotchit when you slag off our mob ..Royal Springfield Corpulent Fusiliers in-bloody-deed.

Len (Ciphers)
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Teabag
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Age : 67
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   13/2/2010, 09:33

Thought it was a can of Duff beer myself?
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PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   13/2/2010, 12:39

I've just checked Len, that is definitely not Mercury on that badge.
Could it be the badge of the Kings Royal Rotund Carbiniers (Ronald Mc Donald's Own), I wonder?

And a Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt to you mate !

Baz.
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Paul
Maj Gen
Maj Gen


Number of posts : 817
Age : 65
Localisation : Limavady, N.I.
Cap Badge : R.E.M.E.
Places Served : Arborfield (Basic training), S.E.M.E. Bordon (Trade training), Barnard Castle, Hemer, Belfast (Emergency Tour), Londonderry, Munster, Brunei, Hong Kong
Registration date : 2008-04-06

PostSubject: Keith Bradbury - cap badge   15/2/2010, 14:21

This gentleman continues to elude detection up to now, but Bazza has come up with a possibility for the cap badge. I have cropped one of the photographs already posted, and added the two that Bazza has sent.

In blue below the photo's is part of Bazza'a message.





"I found the attached in two separate books.

One book called the badge “The Lancastrian Volunteers” and the other book put it in a group under “Infantry Brigades 1958-69”.

What do you think?"
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TonyE
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Number of posts : 112
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Localisation : Woodbridge Suffolk
Cap Badge : RASC & RCASC,later CF Logistics Branch
Places Served : Hannover, Bielefeld, Camp Borden, Camp Petawawa, CFB Kingston, Korea, Soest, Cyprus, Lahr.
Registration date : 2009-01-09

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   15/2/2010, 23:11

Lancastrian Brigade looks good,but how about the Royal Sussex Regt. with the plume sticking up?
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handyman
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Number of posts : 15
Age : 76
Localisation : Bilston, West Midlands
Cap Badge : Royal Horse Artillery
Places Served : UK,Germany,UK,Aden,Colchester
Registration date : 2011-01-10

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/1/2011, 14:35

Basketball Has everyone forgotten the tax free bounty or bribe that was paid to National servicemen who agreed to stay on for a further twelve months. I was a regular posted out to Germany on July 1959. My regiment had more that its fair share of NS and quite a few of them took this bounty. I think it was £500, a tidy sum in those days. cheers
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jim
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Number of posts : 1291
Localisation : Sutton Coldfield
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Dad, Hamburg, Bad Oeynhausen, Iserlohn, Bury, Osnabruck, Worcester. Me Detmold, Bielefeld, NI, HK
Registration date : 2008-01-03

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/1/2011, 15:29

Bit before my time handyman, but I do remember working with a few guys who had been part of the group that had to serve on longer.

I see you're quite local to me.
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brum
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Number of posts : 2808
Age : 76
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/1/2011, 17:54

handyman wrote:
Basketball Has everyone forgotten the tax free bounty or bribe that was paid to National servicemen who agreed to stay on for a further twelve months. I was a regular posted out to Germany on July 1959. My regiment had more that its fair share of NS and quite a few of them took this bounty. I think it was £500, a tidy sum in those days. cheers

Welcome Handyman.

A Black Country Mon and a Horse Gunner, that's raising the tone a bit ! sunny
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handyman
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Number of posts : 15
Age : 76
Localisation : Bilston, West Midlands
Cap Badge : Royal Horse Artillery
Places Served : UK,Germany,UK,Aden,Colchester
Registration date : 2011-01-10

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/1/2011, 19:07

Thanks for the welcome Brum. I only found this site today, while researching my old camp at Hildesheim. I clicked on a link and there it was. I originally intended to join the 16/5th Royal lancers, but after doing the various tests at Wolverhampton Army recruiting centre, I was told that I would be going to the Royal Artillery because they need men of your calibre. I was 18 at the time and the recruiting officers joke fell on deaf ears. I remember his next words to me, and I quote, "You are going to be a TARA young man". I had not got a clue what a TARA was and I said so. He then said," Its a Technical Assistant-Royal Artillery". I still hadn't got a clue but I stuck my chest out and said, "Thats for me Sir". It turned out that I was to become a Regimental Surveyor and the RSMs general dogs-body as all the rest of the Surveyors were. But I loved my Army service and I would do it all again, given the chance. Those were good days, and thank the Lord, apart from being deaf, I am in perfect health and fighting fit.
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Shelldrake
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Number of posts : 2991
Localisation : Camberley
Cap Badge : Royal Artillery
Places Served : Troon, Lippstadt, Devizes, NI, Paderborn, Dortmund, Colchester, Belize, Canada, Cyprus, Gutersloh
Registration date : 2010-10-26

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/1/2011, 19:28

Hi Handyman, good to see another Gunner - that makes 3 of us!!
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handyman
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Number of posts : 15
Age : 76
Localisation : Bilston, West Midlands
Cap Badge : Royal Horse Artillery
Places Served : UK,Germany,UK,Aden,Colchester
Registration date : 2011-01-10

PostSubject: Re: Six Months Extra   10/1/2011, 19:33

Only 3 of us Shelldrake. Tut!tut! this is not good enough. Where are the rest of the Cannon fodder? Get fell in you skivers, stand up and be counted. bounce
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