Another Canadian

I've been photographing war graves again and today found a group of soldiers buried together in a small plot at one of our local cemeteries.

Eleven were Cheshires, two were Royal Artillery and all killed on the same day or thereabouts (died of wounds?). They were HD which I presume means Home defence? They were killed mostly on March 12th 1941 and an educated guess makes me think it was something to do with the Blitz on Merseyside? I am just surprised I have never known of this before.

Anyway, one is listed Coulstring C R. Cheshire Regt but underneath in brackets it says Of Canada. Checked him on the CWGC site and his parents lived in Wellington Station. Halifax. Nova Scotia.

Whats he doing in a home defence battalion of the Cheshire Regt getting killed on the Wirral?

Remember the old tele series the Naked City? There are eight million stories in the naked city etc. Well there are more mysteries in both wars than that. Any suggestions?

HI TEABAG I DID 12 MONTHS BOY SERVICE IN JTR RHYL KIMMEL PARK CAMP , BODELWYDDAN , THE WHITE CHURCH GRAVEYARD HAS A LOT OF CANADIAN GRAVE , ITS TO DO WITH A MUTINY AT THE END OF THE WWII

john mcmillan wrote:

HI TEABAG I DID 12 MONTHS BOY SERVICE IN JTR RHYL KIMMEL PARK CAMP , BODELWYDDAN , THE WHITE CHURCH GRAVEYARD HAS A LOT OF CANADIAN GRAVE , ITS TO DO WITH A MUTINY AT THE END OF THE WWII

I think that is an urban myth John. They died in the great flu epidemic although there was a mutiny of sorts at Kinmel camp because they wanted to go home. I've read about this and they had survived the war and were being mucked about. Quite rightly in my humble they had done their bit and just wanted to get home. A ship (ships?) had been designated for their repatriation but was requisitioned for something else. It was WW1 btw.

YES I THINK I READ THE SAME THING, WHAT PART OF MERSEYSIDE DO YOU LIVE?

john mcmillan wrote:

YES I THINK I READ THE SAME THING, WHAT PART OF MERSEYSIDE DO YOU LIVE?

Wallasey

WAS OVER HESWELL LEGION 2 YEAR AGO A MALAYSIAN ARMY COL PRESENTED ABOUT 200 OF US WITH THE PINGAT JASA MALAYSIA IN A PROPER CASE NOT LIKE THE LITTLE CARDBOARD BOX WE GOT THE GSM BORNEO IN
IT WAS NICE TO HEAR GUINUE GAP BATHS WAS BEING SAVED I USED TO GO THERE EVER WEDNESDAY NIGHT WITH THE RYDAL YOUTH CENTRE, GREAT BATHS THE WATER MADE YOU THIRSTY THAT WAS THE EARLY SIXTIES

Teabag wrote:

Anyway, one is listed Coulstring C R. Cheshire Regt but underneath in brackets it says Of Canada. Checked him on the CWGC site and his parents lived in Wellington Station. Halifax. Nova Scotia.

Whats he doing in a home defence battalion of the Cheshire Regt getting killed on the Wirral?

Any suggestions?

Possibly he came over before the war and enlisted. That was not unknown, as Canada's standing Army, Navy, RCAF was quite small and hard to enlist in pre-WW 2. Or he may not have been found fit for the Cdn. Army and worked his way over via Merchant Navy and enlisted in the U.K. That was a common thing at the beginning of the war.

A bit more about Canadians. When in Argyle last May I was checking out the War Memorial on the water front. It had lads from Argyle noted on the memorial scroll who died and gave there lives in the Canadian Army in WW 1. A well done thing, to let those families know that their sons who had immigrated to Canada were not forgotten back home.

The fact that he might not have been fit enough for the Canadian army might explain the fact that he was HD. Not fit enough for overseas but allowed to enlist for home service only. Brave lad all the same.

Teabag wrote:

john mcmillan wrote:

HI TEABAG I DID 12 MONTHS BOY SERVICE IN JTR RHYL KIMMEL PARK CAMP , BODELWYDDAN , THE WHITE CHURCH GRAVEYARD HAS A LOT OF CANADIAN GRAVE , ITS TO DO WITH A MUTINY AT THE END OF THE WWII

I think that is an urban myth John. They died in the great flu epidemic although there was a mutiny of sorts at Kinmel camp because they wanted to go home. I've read about this and they had survived the war and were being mucked about. Quite rightly in my humble they had done their bit and just wanted to get home. A ship (ships?) had been designated for their repatriation but was requisitioned for something else. It was WW1 btw.

I saw a documentary a few years ago about the Kinmel Park Camp riots. If memory serves correctly (and I admit this is not always the case these days ) some of the "mutineers" were actually shot during the incident. They were supposedly buried in a separate part of the Marble Church, Bodelwyddan graveyard. I.E; not with those who died as a result of the flu pandemic.

Mike

Copied off Wiki. I think what is often thought of as fact was that many of those rioting were put up against a wall and shot. After a trial of course but that never happened. How the five died I have no idea.


Colonel G.W.L Nicholson, in the Official History Of The Canadian Army In The First World War, briefly describes the Kinmel mutiny as part of a larger series of events that occurred during the post war redeployment of Canadian troops:

"In all, between November 1918 and June 1919, there were thirteen instances or disturbances involving Canadian troops in England (sic). The most serious of these occurred in Knimel Park on 4th and 5th March 1919, when dissatisfication over delays in sailing resulted in five men being killed and 23 being wounded. Seventy eight men were arrested, of whom 25 were convicted of mutiny and given sentences varying from 90 days' detention to ten years' penal servitude."


"The mutineers were our own men, stuck in the mud of North Wales, waiting impatiently to get back to Canada - four months after the end of the war. The 15,000 Canadian troops that concentrated at Kinmel didn't know about the strikes that held up the fuelling ships and which had caused food shortages. The men were on half rations, there was no coal for the stove in the cold grey huts, and they hadn't been paid for over a month. Forty-two had slept in a hut meant for thirty, so they each took turns sleeping on the floor, with one blanket each."

Noel Barbour, Gallant Protesters (1975)

Teabag wrote:

Copied off Wiki. I think what is often thought of as fact was that many of those rioting were put up against a wall and shot. After a trial of course but that never happened. How the five died I have no idea.

The documentry did say that no-one was sentenced to death by the resulting Courts-Marshall, but that those shot died as a result of panicking officers ordering the guard to shoot into the "mob".

Mind you there were some pretty horrendous sentences handed out to men who had a perfect right to be p****d off.

I believe there were also riots and refusals to obey orders among British troops back from France/Flanders who were awaiting demob.

Mike

I've done a lot of reading on this subject.
Like teabag, I intend to drop off and photograph the graves in Bodelwyddan, one day.
I did read that the Canadian troops in Kinmel were retained in case of "civil unrest" in Liverpool. (We must have been on the edge of revolution in those days !).
How the hell did they keep the lid on things, with all the shit that was going on in the aftermath of that war, I wonder?

brum

Talking about photographing war time grave. Last fall when we were in Lincolnshire, I happened on the village (hamlet?) of Scrampton where the Dambusters flew out of. In the village church yard was a section for WW 2 flyer's and a few soldiers. Also a section for Luftwaffe. It was one of the most poignant scenes I have seen. Especialy seeing the graves where the parents have been interred later (I assume the ashes) to be with the son. I know normaly Commonwealth wartime graves are to be only for the forces member, but I'm assuming that since it is a church grave yard that there is a bit of lee way here. A small village church covered in ivy and moss, the small cemetary. It gets ones attention.

Hardrations wrote:

Talking about photographing war time grave. Last fall when we were in Lincolnshire, I happened on the village (hamlet?) of Scrampton where the Dambusters flew out of. In the village church yard was a section for WW 2 flyer's and a few soldiers. Also a section for Luftwaffe. It was one of the most poignant scenes I have seen. Especialy seeing the graves where the parents have been interred later (I assume the ashes) to be with the son. I know normaly Commonwealth wartime graves are to be only for the forces member, but I'm assuming that since it is a church grave yard that there is a bit of lee way here. A small village church covered in ivy and moss, the small cemetary. It gets ones attention.

I photographed a CWGC headstone in my area, from 1918 which had the soldier's wife and children engraved on it. I can only assume that they'd died of the 'flu.

brum

I have a few with relatives also mentioned but not sure if they are actually buried there. Maybe the ashes as Hardrations says?

Best one for me was the first war soldier whose dad was mentioned as well. The dad fought in the Crimea, Indian mutiny amongst others.

I only took photo's of the RCAF stones. But if I remember correctly, the grave sites of the Forces member (RAF) would have a small foot stone with the names of the mom and dad in front of the members stone. Possibly just a memorial stone. I've assumed that ashes were interned. There was no one about to ask.

I've emailed the Cheshires museum to see if they can tell me what happened to these men. Will let you know if I get a reply.

One longterm effect in the delay of the return of Canadian soldiers to Canada after WW1 was the Canadian Government insisted that there would be no repeat after World War Two

Three weeks after the German Surrender Canadian Soldiers began to leave the Canadian Corps area in Ostfriesland, by mid July all had left Germany being replaced by either British or Polish troops or the newly formed Canadian Army Occupation Force.

Did the Canadians not Garrison in Germany after the war then?

jim wrote:

Did the Canadians not Garrison in Germany after the war then?

Recorded very well thanks to Dan M...command 21st Army Group later HQ BAOR
May 45 – 2nd Canadian Infantry Division – HQ Aurich to Bad Zwischenahn Jun 45 replaced by 3rd Canadian Infantry Division CAOF Jul 45
Command 30th Corps District
Jul 45 – 3rd Canadian Infantry Division CAOF – HQ Bad Zwischenahn replaced by 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division Jun 46 – HQ Crerar Barracks Oldenburg disbanded Aug 46
Regards
Steve

I seem to recal my Father saying the quarters we lived in in Iserlohn were ex canadia Stephen.

Very much later Jim
http://britisharmyiniserlohn.blogspot.com/2009/06/canadian-army-in-iserlohn-1951-to-1971.html
http://britisharmyiniserlohn.blogspot.com/2009/06/1953-to-1970-canadian-army-in-hemer.html
The British army moved out of Iserlohn in 1968 returning 1970
Cheers
Steve

JPW wrote:

One longterm effect in the delay of the return of Canadian soldiers to Canada after WW1 was the Canadian Government insisted that there would be no repeat after World War Two

Three weeks after the German Surrender Canadian Soldiers began to leave the Canadian Corps area in Ostfriesland, by mid July all had left Germany being replaced by either British or Polish troops or the newly formed Canadian Army Occupation Force.

jim wrote:

Did the Canadians not Garrison in Germany after the war then?

Yes they did Jim, JPW says so above.

Mike

PS
Congrats on you full Colonalcy

Stayed at Bad Zwischenahn a couple of times. Friend had a flat on the lake side. A massive block with extra big doorways and corridors because in the event of another war, it would have been used as a hospital. Think that was stipulated when they applied to build it.

Lovely little town.

Hmm, maybe it was the Canadians taking over from us then Steve,

I wish my Dad was alive, I'd love to question him about those times. My mum is very wooly about dates and places now.

oh yes, I see you are right, Full Colonel now.