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 Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army

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unclevanya
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PostSubject: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   23/11/2012, 00:36

I have read somehwere, cannot remember where, that at one time either pre-war WW2 or during, that there was a rank of WO3, between Staff / Colour Sergent and WO2. Does anyone know any history of this rank, and was it just peculiar to specific regiments.

As for the appointments in Military Bands, are the appointments of Drum Major, Pipe Major etc at Senior NCO level, and do they carry the same powers as ordinary SNCO ranks?

Do US Forces personnel who work with British Military become a tad confused at the UKs rank structure of Warrant Officer as against their own? Wink

... I know that when I was posted to BOAR as agreen wet behind the ears 19 year old, I was more than a tad confused when WO1s wore the same sort of raincoat as hofficers... so being a keen lad, I was always saluting one particular WO1, our Yeoman of Signals, much to his embarrasment.... and mine for being a tw*t...! Hmm, I was sooo sad! affraid Sad !
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   23/11/2012, 08:21

There is a thread on the WO thingy somewhere on the forum
The Drum Major and Pipe Major seconded to AAS Harrogate were Sgts.And yes they did have the same powers of ordinary SNCOs
In transit at 11 Sigs i saluted the RSM (well he was wearing one of those new No2 dresses).Thankfully i was only there for a couple of days or i may have developed a complex of some sort Mad Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   23/11/2012, 13:18

Platoon Sergeant Major (PSM) was an appointment in the British Army in the short-lived rank of Warrant Officer Class III (WOIII), created in 1938. The Platoon Sergeant Major, and his cavalry counterpart, the Troop Sergeant Major, were part of an experiment in giving experienced NCOs command of units formerly reserved for commissioned officers (platoons and troops). The experiment was not considered a success, and no promotions were made to the rank after 1940: most existing WOIIIs were commissioned as lieutenants.Hope this helps guys.

Army Council Instruction 398, 17 Sep 1938 instituted this rank that lasted until c1947. That bit's from Davis British Army Uniforms and Insignia of World War Two.

The intention was to train senior NCOs in officers' duties to command at the platoon/troop level, as distinct from the type of role undertaken by CSMs and RSMs. Some pls/tps in a coy/sqn would be commanded by subalterns, some by WO3s.

For the duration, WO3s wore a plain crown, WO2s crown-in-wreath, WO1s Royal Arms.More info on this subject.


Last edited by rucjock21 on 23/11/2012, 13:46; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Update.)
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   23/11/2012, 16:50

I know the Drum Major of the Coldstreams. Prior to his appointment, not promotion, to the position of Drum Major he was and still is a Sgt in the Corps of Drums and has the normal disciplinary powers of that rank. The Corps of Drums are not members of the Corps of Army Music and on operations deploy in a normal infantry role.

Hope this helps.

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Dan M
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   24/11/2012, 21:02

BobG wrote:
Prior to his appointment, not promotion, to the position of Drum Major he was and still is a Sgt in the Corps of Drums and has the normal disciplinary powers of that rank. The Corps of Drums are not members of the Corps of Army Music and on operations deploy in a normal infantry role.

Bob,

Excellent post. You have, in a single sentence, explained the position of not only the Drum Major, but also the Pipe Major, Bugle Major, Fife Major and whatever other Majors a Corps of Drums may have. Kudos. I also take issue with persons who can't differentiate between a CoD and a Band. Two completely different animals. It's bad enough when civilians aren't aware of the difference, but it's disappointing when serving soldiers are also ignorant of it.

A good way to tell the difference? If there are women in it, it's a Band.

Cheers,
Dan.
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Shelldrake
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 08:11



A good way to tell the difference? If there are women in it, it's a Band.

Cheers,
Dan.[/quote]




Sorry to contradict you Dan but prior to retiring I worked at the RLC Training Centre, Deepcut. They have the RLC Staff Band and the RLC Corps of Drums - both have women serving with them.
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 08:19

Might be getting mixed up with the pipes and drums of Scottish regiments.They are not members of the Corps of Army Music.

Again, somewhere on thes forum there is a lengthy thread on the subject.
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Dan M
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 16:28

Shelldrake wrote:
Sorry to contradict you Dan but prior to retiring I worked at the RLC Training Centre, Deepcut. They have the RLC Staff Band and the RLC Corps of Drums - both have women serving with them.
Seriously? Is there nothing sacred left? Oh fie unfair world!

Trust the Ordnance Corps to screw it up.... I mean, operate with great foresight and perspicacity.

Aren't CoD's usually found in units rather than Depots? Or am I applying Infantry standards to a non-Infantry Corps? It was bad enough watching five-foot Guards Bandsmen (or Bandpersons) wearing Busbies larger than the soldier, and maroon beret Bandpersons with breasts, but this. Where will it end? Females wearing the Winged Dagger?

Cheers, (or maybe slightly depressed)
Dan.
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rucjock21
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 16:39

Equality in the army nowadays means that women in the line regiments is a recipe for disaster I think,I mean can you imagine a woman commanding a platoon in Afghanistan or elsewhere with the troops under fire or in an ambush, it beggars belief.If they want equality then they take the flak that goes with the job.Opinions please.
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Dan M
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 16:51

rucjock21 wrote:
Opinions please.
We, the contributors to this forum, are all dinosaurs. We have become the people at whom we used to laugh when we were in our 20's and had 32-inch waistlines.

Change is inevitable, that is one rule of life. Thirty years from now, the female in charge of SAS selection will be complaining that the course was harder in her day. The two-day shopping yomp at Harrod's was completed without being allowed to wear flats!

Cheers,
Dan.
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ciphers
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 17:09

Captain Nicola Goddard MSM, 1 Canadian Horse Artillery

Captain Goddard arrived in Afghanistan in January 2006, and had been serving with Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry as a forward observation officer at the time of her death.
Her parent unit was the 1st Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery

Goddard was killed on May 17, 2006, during a firefight in the Panjwaye District. It was part of a joint two-day operation between Canadian and Afghan troops, to secure Kandahar's outskirts after a rumor of Taliban preparations to launch an assault on the city. As troops were moving into a mosque to capture 15 alleged Taliban members, several dozen hidden militants began firing from neighbouring houses. As a crew commander, Goddard was standing half-exposed in her LAV III, which was hit by two rocket-propelled grenades early in the battle. The battle lasted most of the day on the 17th and into the night during which time Capt Goddard directed fire on the Taliban until she herself was hit. The battle ended and shortly after an American B-1 Lancer dropped a 225 kg bomb. In the end, the two-day operation saw Goddard, an Afghan National Army soldier, and 40 Taliban killed, as well as approximately 20 Taliban captured.

She was posthumously awarded the Meritorious Service Medal on Oct 27, 2006

We were discussing women in action !!!!!!

Len (Ciphers)
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 17:22

'fraid so Dan. Women have served with 14 Int Coy in NI and the SAS (unconfirmed). Female Commanding Officers, Regimental Sergeant Majors, Brigadiers, Quartermasters, these are the days of Diversity and a good thing it is too. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   25/11/2012, 17:53

Dan M wrote:
rucjock21 wrote:
Opinions please.
We, the contributors to this forum, are all dinosaurs. We have become the people at whom we used to laugh when we were in our 20's and had 32-inch waistlines.

Change is inevitable, that is one rule of life. Thirty years from now, the female in charge of SAS selection will be complaining that the course was harder in her day. The two-day shopping yomp at Harrod's was completed without being allowed to wear flats!

Cheers,
Dan.

Yes Dan,Unfortunately change is with us now and I for one do not necessarily agree with it as I'm sure many others on here do likewise.I don't think I could ever accept working with female officers in the Infantry/Para's/SAS as I might be tempted to take care of them instead of carrying out my duties as ordered.I can remember when I was a policeman in Belfast and I went out on patrol with any female officers (who I might add at the time were never armed)I was inclined to keep a watchful eye on her rather than doing my job in question.I'm glad to see that someone has seen sense to arm them nowadays.Don't get me wrong, some of those policewomen could handle themselves very well and I had the greatest respect for them. pale pale
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   30/11/2012, 15:50


rucjok21 - on the other hand, she may have been tempted to take of you --- something to do with the mothering instinct!!
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   3/12/2012, 22:17

Women are not permitted to join the Infantry or Armoured Corps in the British Army, but Medics, Artillary & EOD (among others) females all serve on the front line of operations in Afganistan.

Captain Lisa Head, Royal Logistic Corps was the first ever female bomb disposal officer to be killed on operations after she died from wounds sustained on Afganistan last year.

She was clearing an alleyway laced with IEDs (Improvised Explosive Device) for a patrol of paratroopers in one of the most dangerous parts of Helmand when she received the fatal injuries.

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Hussar100
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   6/5/2013, 18:22

Mike_2817 wrote:
Women are not permitted to join the Infantry or Armoured Corps in the British Army, but Medics, Artillary & EOD (among others) females all serve on the front line of operations in Afganistan.

Captain Lisa Head, Royal Logistic Corps was the first ever female bomb disposal officer to be killed on operations after she died from wounds sustained on Afganistan last year.

She was clearing an alleyway laced with IEDs (Improvised Explosive Device) for a patrol of paratroopers in one of the most dangerous parts of Helmand when she received the fatal injuries.

That's changed. Women now serve with teeth arms, but not in combat appointments. Saw loads of them with 1RIR where they still use the endearing term "Greenfinch" for their women as a legacy from the UDR.
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   7/5/2013, 12:32

Same as it was. Women are still not permitted to join the Infantry or Armoured Corps in the British Army, but agree that they have them attached in Admin Role.

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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   7/5/2013, 13:15

Mike_2817 wrote:
Same as it was. Women are still not permitted to join the Infantry or Armoured Corps in the British Army, but agree that they have them attached in Admin Role.

The women I saw at 1 RIR were badged to them. That suggests they weren't attached.
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   7/5/2013, 21:20

No women are permitted in Infantry or Armoured roles in the British Army. Full Stop.

You may have seen females with Infantry Cap Badges from many Regiments, even Para's but they normaly are members of the Corps of Military Music assigned to that Regimental Band.

It used to be the case that 'Greenfinchs' wore the UDR cap badge, but were Non-Deployable outside of the province.

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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   8/5/2013, 14:23

I think you're maybe not allowing for changes which may have taken place. I agree that 1 RIR may be unique because their Greenfinches were totally integrated into the UDR and RIR Home Service battalions and that may well have been kept on with the colours. Certainly the girls I spoke to at Fort George and Ternhill were an integral part of the battalion, were Irish and had specifically joined 1RIR as Rangers. They were not employed in combat positions however and were all admin.

What I have noted is that women appear to be attached to many teeth arm units now in admin roles (usually commissioned from what I have seen) but I have also seen women medics who accompany combat patrols in the Stan. They are armed themselves (another oddity for me as medics didn't use to be armed) and several have been decorated for bravery under fire, most notably a Wren who got the MC (If I'm not wrong).

I didn't see any women in uniform the last time I visited my own regiment (about 3 years ago) which would suggest to me that maybe this doesn't happen with armoured cavalry but that it does with infantry and certainly with 1 RIR.

I've put that together as logically as I can. Time moves on old chap and changes happen which we don't necessarily agree with. I can see the time coming when women are included in infantry platoons and cavalry troops.
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   8/5/2013, 23:07

Oh I agree the dividing line is geting ever thiner, but it is still there. But as of now they are not trained as Infantry, and Medics have been armed for a good few years now, even female ones. The only Females still not to be armed are QARANC and Padre's...

As for women being badged Infanty, I will keep an open mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   9/5/2013, 04:44

Mike_2817 wrote:
Oh I agree the dividing line is geting ever thiner, but it is still there. But as of now they are not trained as Infantry, and Medics have been armed for a good few years now, even female ones. The only Females still not to be armed are QARANC and Padre's...

As for women being badged Infanty, I will keep an open mind.

Politictians will decide on the basis of what's good for votes not the military
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   9/5/2013, 14:53

Mike_2817 wrote:
Oh I agree the dividing line is geting ever thiner, but it is still there. But as of now they are not trained as Infantry, and Medics have been armed for a good few years now, even female ones. The only Females still not to be armed are QARANC and Padre's...

As for women being badged Infanty, I will keep an open mind.

This conversation has intrigued me so I've done a bit of rummaging about and I've found that the Royal Irish Regiment accepts both men and women as recruits.
I went a bit further then and discovered that, as I suspected, women can join any regiment in the army but when it comes to teeth arms they can only have admin employment.

So it looks like things have changed. Whether or not that's for the better remains to be seen.

Unfortunately my status on this website means I can't post the links I found but I did a google search on "women in the Royal Irish Regiment" and one on "women in the British Army. "
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   9/5/2013, 17:07

You just type the URL including the http:// header into the body of you text and when you post your message it converts into a clickable link.

Look at:

http://www.army.mod.uk/join/20145.aspx


Try out some links!


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Hussar100
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PostSubject: Re: Warrant Officer Ranks in British Army   9/5/2013, 17:19

Mike_2817 wrote:
You just type the URL including the header into the body of you text and when you post your message it converts into a clickable link.

Look at:



Try out some links!


I need to have been a member for more than 7 days to use links. I've even had to remove your link from this post to send it.

However, from the Royal Irish website:

The Royal Irish Regiment welcomes applications from young men and women, no matter what their marital status, race, ethnic origin or religious belief.

No account is taken of sexual orientation or social background in considering applications.

The Army and the Regiment are fully committed to equality of opportunity.

We would particularly welcome applications from the Roman Catholic community as they are currently under represented in our Regiment.


And from the BBC:

Women are excluded from joining the Royal Marines General Service as Commandos, and cannot take on combat roles in the Household Cavalry, Royal Armoured Corps, Infantry and the Royal Air Force Regiment.

They can still join these units, but must play administrative and support roles.


So we have a complete contradiction which doesn't surprise me. I'd still say the RIR situation is a result of their amalgamation with the UDR where women Greenfinches were totally integrated with each unit and was totally unique at that time - and maybe still is?
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