SLR / SA80 or M16!

Mike_2817 wrote:

The Carlie G Sub-Calibre L1A2 device most will remember looked like a 84mm HEAT round and fired a 6.5mm Tracer Round - this being the Swedish small arms calibre

There is a later version, still used (the FFV553B) which uses standard 7.62mm Tracer plus a small cartridge to simulate back blast.

On the subject of sub-calibres, did anyone have much to do with the Heckler and Koch device that fitted into a SLR ? It had a .22 barrel and its magazine fitted inside that of the host rifle.

The idea was (I think) that a shooter could zero this rifle on a miniature range while at the same time save on 7.62 ammo.

It was thrown at me to "evaluate" in the mid-70s but was then promptly withdrawn by the RQMS.

The HK .22" Sub-Calibre Kit for the SLR comprised of a insert barrel, a lightweight breach-block, and a full sized magazine with .22" insert. It was intended as a indoors training aid and did not zero a weapon for outside full calibre use, but trained a user in handling (drills were the same as for full calibre) aiming and firing without any kick. It was scaled for training units only.

There was also a .22" Sub-Cal Kit for the 5.56mm L85A1 (SA80) but it was withdrawn from use when the weapon was re-worked to A2 Standard. There is talk of it being re-introduced for the Cadet L98A2 Rifle (re-worked L85A1 with modified Parts = Re-Cocking Single Shot Only) The L98A1 Single Shot Cadet Rifle being scrapped.

Also there was a 35mm M190 Sub-Calibre insert for the used M72 66mm Disposable Tube! and fired a small M73 nylon dart at a paper tank target!

A 66mm with a new warhead, The L72A9 Light Anti-Structures Missile (LASM) has recently been deployed in Afghanistan.

http://www.eliteukforces.info/weapons/lasm/

brum wrote:

merchant6690 wrote:

For interest the small pocket on the right hand ammo pouch on 58 pattern webbing is for the Energa adaptor.

Thanks for enlightening me, I allways wondered what that was for !

I used to keep my blank attachment in it.

Kept my Fags in there!

We used SLR which self loaded and fired 0.22 rounds on an indoor urban battle range at Swynerton in the Midlands. All good fun, quite scary for some of the new recruits when the DS, who observed us from a high level control room, chucked bottles at us with some sort of machinery & blew tops off bins with a det. after ordering you to take cover behind it. It beat computer games......... No contest ! ......., but I guess you proper soldiers have done it for real.

And at a charity shoot organised by Army Benevolent Fund, there were SA80s & AK47s which shot 0.22' . Don't know much about them, but the SA80, complete with Susat sight, looked real enough but it was stamped "Made in Italy". As an aside, I wasn't in uniform and they called me out at prize giving........ I'd won the Novices' Medal.

Woody,
Deviating from the subject matter slighltly, you mentioned a Stuart Light Tank used as a hard target for ENERGA whist at JLR Rhyll. In 78-80 I was PSO 119 Rec Coy REME (TAVR) in Prestatyn and we used Kimmel Camp training area a lot including a Stuart Lt Tank for recovery trg. One day I had a call from the watchman to ask had we removed our Stuart as it was no longer on the trg area. I went up to Kimmel to investigate and found were it had been dragged out through the back fence, being a good boy scout I followed the very obvious tracks to where it had been left behind some Forrestry Commission huts close to the main road, I informed the local plods who kept watch and caught the culprits when they turned up with a low loader. During the subsequent court case the defence claimed in mitigation that they thought it had been abandoned and as it was not exactly a piece of front line NATO equipment they should be let off. Turned out they had already sold it to an innocent collector who wanted to refurbish it. Cant remember what they got but the case made the national press.
Bob

They probably got a pat on the back for clearing away fly tipped rubbish!

I'm reminded too................
We were doing dems. & mine warfare trg at a spot on the east coast near Hornsea. I can't remember the camp's name......... Rolleston? Something like that...... the dems. area was part of an RAF live firing range. Lads asked the QPSI in charge of the explosives what the effect of a Mk.VII AT mine would be. There wasn't a live mine to play with but there was a pound or two of plastic to hand and a decrepit Bedford QL 3- tonner on the range which obviously wasn't ever likely to move again under its own steam. Plastic was placed under truck, det was shoved in and det cord was laid up to a safe location. When fingers were in ears, the RE's equivalent of blue touch paper was lit.

The subsequent explosion was more than satisfying. In no time at all, bits of Bedford were distributed over a wide area, big lumps, like engine block, bounced back to earth and lay smoking in the sandy soil. The lads were impressed and giggled in the back of the truck as they drove home.

That might have been the end of it but, with pre- training paper work being precisely completed and filed away, it wasn't difficult to locate which unit had been messing around with PE3. If the top of the Bedford had been visible from the ground, it would have been possible to see that a large white arrow was painted on the canvas tilt. Curious observers of the arrow might have wondered if it served some purpose and, indeed, it did. It hadn't been the whim of some high up in the airforce, ordered just to find a job for a pair of idle hands, it was the RAF's equivalent of road markings, a keep left sign, to make sure air to ground things didn't disturb bathers on nearby beaches. Tornado pilots used it to help them line up an approach to the rocket range. In fact, the RAF was miffed, training was disrupted.

I think it took about a week to find another suitable vehicle, tow it out there and place it in position. So it wasn't all a waste of time. Some other training value was gained from the disaster and one or two had another day at the coast.

I was going to add this to Brums rant but thought it too serious a subject to high jack and digress too much.

Anyway, speaking of playstations etc, I took my next door neighbours grandson to a military show a couple of years back. They had a world war two reenactment mob there with British, German and American weapons.

This eight year old lad could name every single weapon they had and there were plenty to choose from. One of the guys explained that most kids could do the same simply because they played computer games that featured them.

Apologies Teabag, in respect of your gentle admonishment.....it's too easy to get carried away, so back to original topics..........

Firstly, I've been reading back, looking at what's gone before and it's all quite informative. In respect of the PIAT,which one or two have used on ranges, at least, I understood that it was certainly a swine to cock and almost required both feet and both arms to do so. However, the refs I have tell that on pressing the tit to shoot the thing, bomb went one way, working bits went the other. In other words, it self cocked. Anybody remember if this is right?

Secondly, going back to Bren & SLR........ I remember there was early concern about making SLR safe on the ranges. Old sweats brought up with the Bren acted instinctively on "Unload!",took the mag off, cocked, and knew that, with the mag away, there was no round in the weapon. Being an automatic weapon, the Bren fired with an open breech, the working parts moved forward, picked up a round and fired it when the trigger was pulled. An open breech system was fine for an MG, and most automatic weapons, when a round in the breech might cook off if the gun was hot after sustained firing.

SLR was different, it fired from a closed breech. Just removing the mag could still leave a round stuck up the barrel, a squeeze of the trigger could still fire it, as might a hot breech after loosing off a magazine or two. On the range it was simple to order cocking of the SLR after the mag was off. Off the range, in action, the mag wouldn't always be removed and, if SLR was cocked to clear the round in the chamber, another would be loaded when the working parts went forward again. Or is there something I don't know ?

So question is what drills were instituted in action to minimise accidental discharge ?

First I A.

"Magazine off. Cock, Hook and Look ".

To clear and make the weapon Safe. (Firing point or Unloading Bay).

Drill as above. Magazine into pouch/pocket. Show the weapon for inspection.

On being given "Clear", cycle the working parts six times. Squeeze the trigger. Apply the safety catch.

How many .303 trained men got up from the firing point and picked up the new-fangled SLR by the barrel I wonder ?

They only did it once !

Ok,thanks, got it........ I remember safety procedure on a range . But if SLR had been fired on patrol, or static, in action , before you got to a safe area & unloaded, when there was still chance that there might be a need to be ready to fire again, a squaddy could be moving about with one up he spout and, by all accounts a round in a breech which was warm enough to burn fingers at least. Didn't it ever cook off ?

Just as an aside, has anybody ever seen a 7.62 cook off in any sort of weapon?.

Not something I ever saw, or heard of.

brum wrote:

Not something I ever saw, or heard of.

Nor me but I wasn't using them as much as say infantry bods.

Never handled them after training

Gordon. wrote:

Never handled them after training

No Op BANNER tours then, Gordon ?

Daveb wrote:

Just as an aside, has anybody ever seen a 7.62 cook off in any sort of weapon?.

It was only the SLR that fired from a closed bolt, and to be honest you were never issued that much ammo to heat the barrel that much. It would take a few hundred rounds before it got that hot!

Following on from an earler post.

Standard stages of use for an SLR were:

(*) It did not matter if magazine is full or empty, untill checked by user

(a) Unloaded - Magazine off, Chamber cleared of ammunition,
(#) Only way weapon should be stored or handed to another person, accompanied by chamber inspection.

(b) Loaded - Magazine On

(c) Ready - Rifle Cocked, and round in breach
(#) Only stage where a round should be in chamber (include 'fireing')

(d) Unload - Magazine off, Cock and clear weapon. - Weapon then becomes 'Unloaded' as at (a)

(e) Made Safe - Magazine On, Chamber Empty - as at loaded (b)
(#) Rifle is cleared by unload action (d) , and full magazine replaced.

(f) I.A. - 'Cock, Hook & Look, Clear the fault, replace magazine (b) make ready (c) and carry on firing.

Note, I am sure the manual takes several pages to explain each action!

Very like the TsOET

Smart Arse Len back in 1951 is issued with all the other Nig Nogs a grease covered Lee Enfield Mk4 .. we all spent the best part of a morning pouring hot water down the barrel to remove the grease (funnily they could find hot water to clean a bloody rifle, but not for shaving etc, 'Yer Regulars, use cold water) - anyway finally all rifles cleaned and gleaming to Troop Officers satisfaction - every one onto the drill shed for weapons instruction -
'Nah then, pay attention - the furst fing yew doos when yew andle a rifle is ter carry aht saftee precorshuns, roit' (Cpl Searles) ..

'Payne, ave yew bin listning - wot is the furst thing yew do when yew cleens a wepon'

'Make sure its mine corporal'

Well I thought it was funny at the time, and after all I did have War Certificates Parts 1 and 2, instructors certificates for Rifle and Application of Fire, Bren, Advanced Map Reading, Foot Drill and Field tactics.
Learned my skill in the Army Cadets from the best, our parent unit was the Parachute Regt., those guy's treated us kids as though we were their own.
From the age of 14 until I joined the mob at 17 1/2, I spend most weekends at Aldershot or on the ranges,
So why did I enlist in the Signals you ask.

Len (Ciphers)

Len I ask why did You join the Signals,,,lol

Seen cook offs in Co=ax gpmgs,

Never fired the SA80 but I have fired the SLR and the AR15.

I would imagine the SA80 is similar to the AR15 as they are both smaller calibre with pressed alloys and much plastic.

The AR15 was like firing an air rifle after the SLR. Seemed like a toy gun to me.

The foresight was quite thick too which wasn't too good for accuracy.

The SLR was a proper mans weapon. A cannon.

SLR or C1 A1 as we knew it. It was accurate, took a beating and stoped the target. But one must remember, that ones equipment is made by cheapest contract bidder. Or better yet by some one who is buddy, buddy to the powers to be.

Quote :

No Op BANNER tours then, Gordon ?

After my time Brum

I've seen a C2 cook off, That was the fully automated version which repalced the Bren for us. It was like using a fire hose, just wanted to climb.

pete26 wrote:

Never fired the SA80 but I have fired the SLR and the AR15.

the SLR was a proper mans weapon. A cannon.

So it was, but with a backsight which was more like looking through a keyhole than the smaller diameter aperture on the .303 it was more difficult to get a small group. As the average lad couldn't perform like an expert anyway, perhaps accuracy of that sort didn't matter much, and I seem to recall that our classification shoot programmes were altered when SLR replaced No.4 Enfield.

Tried something more like a cannon once........... We had booked the range to give the rifle team more practice. On the adjacent firing point the local rifle club were doing something similar. One or two in those Oz style bush hats & green body warmers wandered over, tried to be matey, expressed interest in our SLRs.
It gravitated into one of those " We'll show you ours if you'll show us yours"
things. We let them have a couple of rounds a piece, they produced the muzzle loaders, Minie Enfields, .577" calibre, 39" long barrels nearly as long as a complete SLR.

That was fearsome! Black powder charge made smoke, recoil nearly broke collar bone and you could almost hear that heavy, solid lead bullet whistling
through the air before making an audible splat in the target. Ten rounds rapid would have taken ten minutes.