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 BAOR in the 1940s

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steve
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   3/6/2010, 09:29

Have a purchased a small book "Brigades of the British Army 1939-45" like all other WW2 information stops at Aug 45 and does not give locations except NW Europe but does should units under command as at Aug 45 so very useful
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   3/6/2010, 13:55

JPW, you are right thanks,

I spoke to my Mum last night, He was KRRC and yes he was working in Buxtehude. Mum told me he transferred to the XX of Foot shortly after I was born and we were posted to Bad Oeynhausen. I think that was HQ BAOR then.

Mike, you know I am. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   3/6/2010, 19:25

Jim
HQ BAOR was indeed based in "Bad O" in 1948
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   4/6/2010, 09:05

I have only very faint memories of Bad O JPW, We were posted to Iserlohn when I was about or 5 I think, I know I went to my first school there.
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   4/6/2010, 11:14

jim wrote:
"1 Bn Lancashire Fusiliers were in Aldershot Barracks Iserlohn 53-66"

and so was I Steve Smile

Sorry another error affraid should be 53-56 recorded Nov 53 to Nov 56 replaced by the 1 Bn Norfolk Regt
Regards
Steve
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   4/6/2010, 11:33

LOL, I never even noticed the '66 mate. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   12/7/2010, 10:10

steve wrote:
The is much written about WWII but little after until the build up of British Forces Germany after in Berlin Airlift and the start of the Cold War all WWII research on the internet seems to stop after May 1945 http://www.ordersofbattle.com/UnitIndex.aspx has been useful for wartime units and formations but stops at Aug 45 some time ago started my research on the British Army in Iserlohn 1945 to 1994 with help from BAOR Locations and ‘The British Army in Germany (BAOR and after) an Organizational History 1947-2004’ very useful but missing the first two years and some errors so my intention is to expand my research outside of Iserlohn

First the 1 Corps District area that took over 30 Corps District area in Sep 46 JPW has done a great job with 8 Corps District later Hamburg District so we hope to contribute to those missing years below is a scan of a 1945 BAOR Christmas card showing clearly 12 Corps that never formed a district believe the HQ was Hamburg until late 45 when final disbanded the HQ 2 Army lingered on to 1946 their HQ was Lüneburg then on disbandment 30 Corps District moved its HQ from Neinburg until disbandment Sep 46 when 1 Corps District took all of the British sector less Berlin and Hamburg District including Schleswig-Holstein when 1 Corps District disbanded Jun 47 each division (2 Inf – 5 Inf – 7 Armd) had a district each along with Hamburg and Hannover that came together in 1948 by then 5 Inf Div and 7 Armd Div had disbanded with units to Hannover District up to this point would like to record the movements around the British Sector

If anybody can assist with this research would be great what has been publish in later years is not always correct so what I have gone for is unit war diaries that continued into 1946 on peace keeping duties have found some unit journals on line and best of all a weekly newspaper an almost complete set for 45/46 so will be able to locate units around Iserlohn the 49 Inf Div area

Regards
Steve

[url]1945 BAOR Xmas Card[/url]


Hi all
Have completed part one of my research with the help of JPW…21st Army Group/BAOR and 1st Corps District units less 5 Inf Div and 7 Armd Div as they did not join 1st Corps District until later so need to do 30th Corps District and 8th Corps District first…will not be doing Berlin as much is already written and hope we have a researcher would can add pages to the “History of BAOR”
http://baor-locations.co.uk/Historyof21stArmyGroupandBAORMay45toFeb49.aspx
Please feel free to offer corrections and additional information regarding unit locations in the meantime starting on 30th Corps District now
Steve
cheers study
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   12/7/2010, 10:30

Great stuff Steve, thanks indeed.
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   18/7/2010, 09:39

Thanks Jim...do we have an RA historian?

Have found out about the various AGRAs and their units but struggling with the anti-aircraft brigades post May 45 even been to page 50 of Goooooogle they appear to contain 2 x light and 1 x heavy as have 100 AA Bde listed:

Jun 45 – 100th Anti-Aircraft Brigade – HQ Harburg
113 (Durham Light Infantry) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA
123 (City of London Rifles) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA
165 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA

The AGRAs and AA Bdes were attached to divisions and the AA Bdes had the task of looking after displaced persons and prison camps there are also Inf Bdes made up of RA regts numbered 600 series TA units trained in the infantry role and formed into Bdes 300 series lots of detail here
http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page3.html

But all stop at Jun 45 so any help would be appreciated
Cheers
Steve
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mjm34
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   18/7/2010, 09:56

steve wrote:
Thanks Jim...do we have an RA historian?

Have found out about the various AGRAs and their units but struggling with the anti-aircraft brigades post May 45 even been to page 50 of Goooooogle they appear to contain 2 x light and 1 x heavy as have 100 AA Bde listed:

Jun 45 – 100th Anti-Aircraft Brigade – HQ Harburg
113 (Durham Light Infantry) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA
123 (City of London Rifles) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA
165 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA

The AGRAs and AA Bdes were attached to divisions and the AA Bdes had the task of looking after displaced persons and prison camps there are also Inf Bdes made up of RA regts numbered 600 series TA units trained in the infantry role and formed into Bdes 300 series lots of detail here
http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page3.html

But all stop at Jun 45 so any help would be appreciated
Cheers
Steve
study

Hi Steve. I have been conducting an on/off project to collect basic RA Regt details (location, role, formation, sub-units), most of the information having been gained from Unit Records held at the Public Records Office/National Archives. I have actually used the 1947 re-numbering as my starting point so we would have a 2 year gap in information which we might be able to fill by extrapolation? I don't have anything specific to AGRAs or AA Bdes but may have info in Regtl records that show the Regt belonged to one. I'll have a dig and let you know.

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   18/7/2010, 12:43

mjm34 wrote:
steve wrote:
Thanks Jim...do we have an RA historian?

Have found out about the various AGRAs and their units but struggling with the anti-aircraft brigades post May 45 even been to page 50 of Goooooogle they appear to contain 2 x light and 1 x heavy as have 100 AA Bde listed:

Jun 45 – 100th Anti-Aircraft Brigade – HQ Harburg
113 (Durham Light Infantry) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA
123 (City of London Rifles) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA
165 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA

The AGRAs and AA Bdes were attached to divisions and the AA Bdes had the task of looking after displaced persons and prison camps there are also Inf Bdes made up of RA regts numbered 600 series TA units trained in the infantry role and formed into Bdes 300 series lots of detail here
http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page3.html

But all stop at Jun 45 so any help would be appreciated
Cheers
Steve
study

Hi Steve. I have been conducting an on/off project to collect basic RA Regt details (location, role, formation, sub-units), most of the information having been gained from Unit Records held at the Public Records Office/National Archives. I have actually used the 1947 re-numbering as my starting point so we would have a 2 year gap in information which we might be able to fill by extrapolation? I don't have anything specific to AGRAs or AA Bdes but may have info in Regtl records that show the Regt belonged to one. I'll have a dig and let you know.

Mike

Thanks Mike great news bom as the renumbering can show the previous unit and location some here
http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/artillery.aspx
cheers Steve
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   6/8/2010, 14:48

Hi all
Have completed part one of my research with the help of JPW…21st Army Group/BAOR and 1st Corps District units less 5 Inf Div and 7 Armd Div as they did not join 1st Corps District until later so need to do 30th Corps District and 8th Corps District first…will not be doing Berlin as much is already written and hope we have a researcher would can add pages to the “History of BAOR”
http://baor-locations.co.uk/Historyof21stArmyGroupandBAORMay45toFeb49.aspx
Please feel free to offer corrections and additional information regarding unit locations in the meantime starting on 30th Corps District now
Steve
cheers study [/quote]

History of BAOR updated today

http://baor-locations.co.uk/Historyof21stArmyGroupandBAORMay45toFeb49.aspx

1st Corps District units now complete along with 30 Corps District http://baor-locations.co.uk/Historyof30thCorpsDistrict.aspx but only with 5 Inf Div and 7 Armd Div

Thanks to JPW for his assistance and hope you can help with more details please understand difficult to record all sources but most have come from unit histories war diaries and unit journals that should be correct...but sure everything is open to question

cheers study
Steve
PS Can do a short link on the website but not here any ideas?
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jim
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   6/8/2010, 14:53

You could use tinyurl Steve, see

http://tinyurl.com/

Now I'm off to read your submission. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   7/8/2010, 08:39

Many thanks Jim
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Mike_2817
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   7/8/2010, 13:21

You can also use HypaLinks which this editor seems not to support;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink

for working examples

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   8/8/2010, 10:04

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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   9/8/2010, 11:12

LOL, it's better than having half a page of link isn't it. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   17/10/2010, 12:06

Hoping the puzzle with 7 Armoured Division could be solved

May 45 – 7th Armoured Division from 12th Corps to 8th Corps District Jun 45 – HQ Borgard Barracks Itzehoe to 21st Army Group Belgium Jun 45 to Berlin Jul 45 to 1st Corps District – HQ unknown Mar 46 to Shiel Barracks Verden Aug 46 formed 7th Armoured Division District Jun 47 to Hannover District Sep 47

Have seen an 40s image on the www of a MP standing outside what appears to be 7 Armd Div HQ in Berlin and already have a record that their brigades 131 Infantry Brigade and 13 Infantry Brigade attached from 5th Infantry Division where in Berlin until Mar 46 so assume the Div HQ was with them looks like their 22 Armd Bde was not there and HQ remained in Warendorf

In Mar/Apr the 7 Armd Div turn up at a 1 Corps District sports meeting…source Polar Bear News printed in Iserlohn for the 49 Inf Div have acquired circa 50 copies Oct 45 to Oct 46 showing the posting of units to 7 Armd Div and other places…looks like 7 Armd Div took the areas of disbanded divisions in Apr 46 and of 52 Inf Div who moved north Jun 45 to take over from the Canadians…so 7 Armd had an area stretching from the Dutch border Lingen to the Elbe and south to Ruhr where 53 Inf Div and 49 Inf Div were and further east to the 5 Inf Div area the 30 Corps District area was reduced as being prepared for disbandment Sep 46

JPW…looks like 7 Armd Div did not return to 8 Corps District...but some of its units did

Hoping for some feedback and corrections…back to the Polar Bear News

Cheers
Steve
"History is a mystery"
study
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   17/10/2010, 19:31

Steve

Very interesting theory, entirely in line with your byline

Could be true but to complicate matters not many 7 Armoured Division units moved to Berlin in July 45 with the HQ

Agree there was a great tidying up of the British Chain of Command in Spring 1946 as the pace of demobilisation accelerated, units disbanded and a certain amount of normality was created as the embrio West German Federal State began to emerge following the denazification process at the end of WW2.

One small correction the Canadians handed over responsibility for Friesland in March 1946 not July 45

Linked to this is the disappearance of 12 Corps whose final objective was Hamburg proper probably in June 45, HQ 7 Armoured Division went to Berlin, HQ 53 (Welsh) Division ended up in the Ruhr with most of its units

Will continue this conversation off line with you direct
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   18/10/2010, 10:01

Peter
Thanks and looking forward to your input but we are both wrong on checking the excellent document Dan sent quote

82. The last entry in t he war diary of C.A.O.F., dated 15 May 46, reads:
15 May, Weather: Rain and cool. Command of this Div area turned over 52 (L.) Inf Div.
Thus, six years and nine months after Canada had declared war, and two years
almost to the day after D Day, Canadian troops withdraw from the soil of a
defeated Germany.


Until their return in 1951...

49th (West Riding) Infantry Division – HQ Neheim to Herdingen Castle Arnsburg Apr 46 disbanded 21 Oct 46 replaced by the 2nd Belgian Infantry Division - HQ Ludenscheid...there is also the 1st Belgian Infantry Division command 1st Corps District - HQ unknown assume Köln area as the Guards Division handed over to them when leaving Apr 46 for your neck of the woods

Cheers
Steve
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   19/10/2010, 15:01

Steve

Have just come back from a profitable visit to my favourite military library in Aldershot

They hold, as I hoped, a reference copy of probably the definitive history of the British Sector in Berlin written by the last GOC and published in the mid 90s. This includes as an Annex a list of all the major British units based in the City from July 1945 onwards It would appear that there were very few Gunner units ever permanently based there, Sappers, Signals and the Logistic units rarely changed titles and were trickle posted not block moves.

Relevent to our studies is

July 1945 BERLIN AREA (hEADQUARTERS HQ 7 ARMOURED DIVISION?)
121 INFANTRY BRIGADE
8th Hussars
11th Hussars
1st Bn Grenadier Guards
1/5 Bn The Queens Regiment (West Surreys')
2nd Bn Devonshire Regiment
Company Royal Northumberland Fusiliers
Canadian Berlin Battalion (detached from CAOF)

Comment Looks like a composite Brigade found mainly from 7 Armourde Division units selected to be the first British Troops in Berlin and who took part in the final Allied Victory Parade through the city. Not mentioned is 3RHA who I believe were also on the Parade.

BRITISH TROOPS BERLIN August 1945- February 1949

October 1945 131 Infantry Brigade
11th Hussars
1st Royal Tank Regiment
1/5 Bn The Queens' Regiment
2nd Battalion Devonshire Regiment
9th Battalion Durham Light Infantry
Company Royal Northumberland Fusiliers

March 1946 131 Infantry Brigade
11th Hussars
1st Royal Tank Regiment
2nd Battalion Devonshire Regiment
1st Battalion Oxfordshire and Buckingham shire Light Infantry
2nd Bn The Essex Regiment

June 1946 130 Infantry Brigade
The Life Guards
7th Battalion Hampshire Regiment
1st Bn Dorset Regiment
5th Bn Dorset Regiment

July 1946 5 Guards Brigade
Squadron The Life Guards
1st Bn Grenadier Guards
1st Bn Coldstream Guards
2nd Bn Gloucestershire Regiment

October 1946 5 Guards Brigade
1st Bn Grenadier Guards
2nd Bn Coldstream Guards

November 1946
Squadron 13/18th Hussars
1st Bn Grenadier Guards
1st Bn Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regimemt)

February 1947
Squadron Inns of Courrt Yeomanry
1st Bn Green Howerds
1st Bn York and Lancaster Regiment

May 1947
Squadron Royal Horse Guards
1st Bn Green Howerds
1st Bn Royal West Kent Regiment

October 1947
Squadron Royal Horse Guards
2nd Bn Northamptonshire Regiment
1st Bn York and Lancashire Regiment

January 1948
Squadron The Royals
2nd Bn Northamptonshire Regiment
1st Bn Royal Norfolk Regiment

February 1948
Squadron ?? Hussars
1st Bn Royal Norfolk Regiment
1st Bn Worcestershire Regiment
2nd Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers

More for the data bank and much food for thought, will return to the more pressing subject of cross checking your framework for the 8 Corps District. Will return to Aldershot in due course and seek out more details of the exact status of Commandant/Goc British Sector Berlin
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   20/10/2010, 10:34

This is all fascinating stuff guys, that you very much.
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   20/10/2010, 10:46

JPW
Great stuff...will now produce a Berlin page for http://baor-locations.co.uk/historybaor.aspx
Many thanks and best regards
Steve
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   5/3/2011, 15:52

The research has been on hold for several months with the home move 'up north' very grateful to JPW who has found a lot useful detail but will take a while to put together to update "History of BAOR" found on the home page of BAOR Locations…I’ll be back soon sunny near Cuxhaven
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PostSubject: Re: BAOR in the 1940s   29/8/2011, 17:06

Have deleted the previous post...replace with...

After the end of WW2 May 1945 it is well known the British Army became the Army of Occupation in the north of Germany with help from the Canadian, Polish and Belgium nations, I do not wish to go into the operations and politics just sticking to unit locations and their areas of responsibility, this is a short draft and will be updating the "History of BAOR" page in the next few days with much more detail down to brigade level, then later units will come under a page for the divisions they served with, these pages have temporally been removed as much work needs to be done to update them

This has only been possible with JPW putting his research with mine and thank him for spending many hours at the Public Records Office at Kew, this part of our history has been very poorly recorded with many errors and but now have looking at documents produced at the time this has produced much detail

May 45 – 21 Army Group HQ was located at the Kurpark in Bad Oeynhausen under command were the remnants of 2 Army the HQ was in Lüneburg and North Germany was split in Corps Districts the 79 Armoured Division appears to have remained under command 21 Army Group and disbanded Aug 45

May 45 – 1 Corps District HQ Aldershot Barracks Iserlohn – Nordrhein-Westfalen
Jun 45 – 30 Corps District HQ Neinburg later Lüneburg – Lower Saxony
Jun 45 – 8 Corps District HQ Kriegsmarine Barracks Plön – Schleswig-Holstein

May 45 – 12 Corps HQ – Hamburg was never made into a District on disbandment then 8 Corps District was then responsible for Hamburg

Many changes in 1946

8 Corps District
Jan 46 – 11 Armoured Division disbanded
Mar 46 – 7 Armoured Division and 4 Independent Armoured Brigade to command 1 Corps District
Apr 46 – 15 (Scottish) Infantry Division disbanded
Apr 46 – 8 Corps District HQ disbanded

Apr 46 – Hamburg District was established in the administration role for the whole of BAOR when GHQ 2nd Echelon moved from Brussels in Jun 46

30 Corps District
Mar 46 – 8 Independent Armoured Brigade disbanded
Mar 46 – 1 Polish Armoured Division to command 1 Corps District
Apr 46 – 43 (Wessex) Infantry Division disbanded
Apr 46 – 51 (Highland) Infantry Division disbanded
May 46 – 3 Canadian Infantry Division CAOF to UK and disbanded replaced by 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division and 7 Armoured Division units command 1 Corps District
Sep 46 – 5 Infantry Division to command 1 Corps District
Sep 46 – 30 Corps District HQ disbanded

1 Corps District
Mar 46 – Guards Division moved from the Rheinland replaced by 1st Belgian Infantry Division take over the 8 Corps District area with 4 Independent Armoured Brigade joining the division and 6 Guards Brigade taking in the north of Lower Saxony area of responsibility previously 30 Corps District units by Jun 46
Mar 46 – 7 Armoured Division HQ moved south to Hamburg later Verden then with 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division in former Canadian and Polish areas of responsibility
Oct 46 – 49 (West Riding) Infantry Division disbanded replaced by the 2nd Belgian Infantry Division

More changes in 1947/1948/1949

1 Corps District
Feb 47 – 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division forms 2nd Infantry Division
Apr 47 – Guards Division HQ disbanded
May 47 - 1 Polish Armoured Division disbanded
Jun 47 – 1 Corps District HQ disbanded

Apr 47 – Hamburg District
Hamburg Sub Area formed from 6th Guards Brigade
Schleswig-Holstein Sub Area formed from HQ Guards Division
4th Armoured Brigade
Feb 48 – 2/16 Independent Parachute Brigade

Jun 47 – 2 Infantry Division District – HQ St David’s Barracks Hilden
Jun 47 – 5 Infantry Division District – HQ Yorkshire Barracks Braunschweig disbanded Sep 47
Jun 47 – 7 Armoured Division District – HQ Bad Rothenfelde disbanded Sep 47 the Div HQ at Verden remained until early 1948

Jun 47 – 2 Infantry Division District
4 Infantry Brigade
5 Infantry Brigade
6 Infantry Brigade

Sep 47 – Hannover District
7th Armoured Brigade
13th Infantry Brigade – HQ disbanded Mar 48
15th Infantry Brigade – HQ disbanded Mar 48
17th Infantry Brigade – HQ disbanded Mar 48
31st Infantry Brigade
Sep 48 – 16 Independent Parachute Brigade to UK Dec 49

Mar 49 – 7th Armoured Division reforms from Hannover District
7 Armoured Brigade
31 Lorried Infantry Brigade

BAOR now consisted of just two divisions and five brigades

If anybody can help with the research please let me know here or with a private message

Regards
Steve
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