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 Medals and stuff

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dandc
Lt Col
Lt Col
dandc

Number of posts : 383
Age : 69
Localisation : gateshead
Cap Badge : 15/19H.ARMY AIR CORPS
Places Served : tidworth, fallingbostle, detmold, hongkong, minden
Registration date : 2009-05-22

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime6/7/2010, 21:00

i google my info,so it might not hold water,hope your friend is more helpful
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brum
FM
FM


Number of posts : 2808
Age : 78
Localisation : Sandbach Cheshire
Cap Badge : RA/QOH
Places Served : JLRRA (Hereford) Nienburg Paderborn Colchester Munster Maresfield (Cyprus) Hohne Hemer Op Banner x4 Woolwich
Registration date : 2010-03-02

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime6/7/2010, 21:08

I'm with the old "Five and Nines" on this one Teabag.
I too, could only find one Mc Leod and he was listed as "Saloon Class Cabin Bed Steward.
You and I both know that the CWGC make cock ups but this is a right mystery !

brum
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Teabag

Number of posts : 960
Age : 69
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime6/7/2010, 21:39

brum wrote:
I'm with the old "Five and Nines" on this one Teabag.
I too, could only find one Mc Leod and he was listed as "Saloon Class Cabin Bed Steward.
You and I both know that the CWGC make cock ups but this is a right mystery !

brum

Apologies Brum and all, my error with his name in the first place. It is McLeod. 252 for me and probably number one field punishment or whatever it is. I am told it does stand for Merchant Marine. Still don't know why he is mentioned as Chief Steward when he wasn't unless he was a survivor of another ship and just working at what he could get to try and get back to the UK?

I once saw a grave in one of our local churches and he had VC at the end. Spent ages checking VC's until someone told me it meant something else and was a religious thing?
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Hardrations
Let Gen
Let Gen
Hardrations

Number of posts : 1045
Localisation : Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Cap Badge : RC Sigs (RTG Op) / CF Logistics (Cook)
Places Served : Germany, Egypt, Cyprus, CFS Alert and some other strange places
Registration date : 2007-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime6/7/2010, 22:41

This is our MM. Given to most high ranking (Major & up) who need a filler on their chest for spending most of their career in Ottawa. When seen on an enlisted person( CWO or MWO) means they saved some senior officers butt who screwed up or mainly because they knew what they were doing.

The Order of Military Merit (French: Ordre du mérite militaire) is a military honour for merit that is, within the Canadian system of honours, the highest such order administered by the Governor General-in-Council,[n 1] on behalf of the Queen of Canada.[3] Created in 1972, to replace a grouping within the Order of Canada, the three-tiered order was established as a fellowship that recognizes members of the Canadian Forces – either regular or reserve personnel – who have demonstrated dedication and devotion beyond the call of duty, achieving conspicuous merit and exceptional military service.[1][2]
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dandc
Lt Col
Lt Col
dandc

Number of posts : 383
Age : 69
Localisation : gateshead
Cap Badge : 15/19H.ARMY AIR CORPS
Places Served : tidworth, fallingbostle, detmold, hongkong, minden
Registration date : 2009-05-22

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime6/7/2010, 23:00

carry on with the quest/hobby sounds interesting and worthwhile.
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime6/7/2010, 23:30

Where was this grave? As he does not seem to be listed on the Bodies Recovered List!

http://www.rmslusitania.info/pages/victims.html

Any chance of a picture of headstone?

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Teabag

Number of posts : 960
Age : 69
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime6/7/2010, 23:36

Mike_2817 wrote:
Where was this grave? As he does not seem to be listed on the Bodies Recovered List!

http://www.rmslusitania.info/pages/victims.html

Any chance of a picture of headstone?

92 the right name wrong initial but a w can easily be confused with a v. Got the photo but where does one put it?
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 11:00

Pictures need to be hosted on a site such as photobucket.com. You copy and paste URL of image here, Highlight it, then add Image tags from menu

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Teabag

Number of posts : 960
Age : 69
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 14:04

Look in here. https://s707.photobucket.com/albums/ww73/mercurypics/

Interesting one of an American memorial in same cemetery. Not sure if he is buried there.
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 16:28

Found the headstone on your page

Medals and stuff - Page 3 Bebington2033

The headstone is to the CWGC style, and was used for Merchant Navy killed at sea by enemy action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lusitania

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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BobG
Lt Col
Lt Col


Number of posts : 330
Age : 80
Localisation : Northumberland
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Rotenburg, Verden, Liebenau, Hohne, Hamm, Duisburg, Minden, Hannover, Fallingbostal, Kuwait, UK, HK, USA/Can.
Registration date : 2008-02-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 16:56

Teabag

Another possibility is, that given his age, he probably served during WW1 and was awarded the MM. I dont know if it is possible check on recipients of the MM.

Bob
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dandc
Lt Col
Lt Col
dandc

Number of posts : 383
Age : 69
Localisation : gateshead
Cap Badge : 15/19H.ARMY AIR CORPS
Places Served : tidworth, fallingbostle, detmold, hongkong, minden
Registration date : 2009-05-22

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 17:06

to teabag and anyone else hooked on this little saga,MY APPOLIGIES.there are two Mc cleods listed as crew on the lusitania [1] W McCLEOD bed steward [not identified as body recovered] [2] V McCLEOD ordinary seaman [identified as body 92] could the headstone you photographed be an empty grave? sorry to add to the confusion.
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 18:02

BobG wrote:
Teabag

Another possibility is, that given his age, he probably served during WW1 and was awarded the MM. I dont know if it is possible check on recipients of the MM.

Bob

Looking at the headstone I think M.M. stands for Mercantile Marine or Merchant Marine.

As to having served in the forces I think not as WW1 started in August 1914 and the ship was sunk in May 1915 only 8 months later!

If it were the Military Medal (MM) it would be after his name, not appointment.

I also think its an empty grave as he is not listed as as a recovered body, and the error in job title is down to relatives who requested it, as is SS instead of RMS

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti


Last edited by Mike_2817 on 7/7/2010, 18:09; edited 1 time in total
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Teabag

Number of posts : 960
Age : 69
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 18:08

Mike_2817 wrote:
BobG wrote:
Teabag

Another possibility is, that given his age, he probably served during WW1 and was awarded the MM. I dont know if it is possible check on recipients of the MM.

Bob

Looking at the headstone I think M.M. stands for Mercantile Marine or Merchant Marine. As to having served in the forces I think not

If it were the Military Medal (MM) it would be after his name, not appointment.

I also think its an empty grave as he is not listed as aecovered body, and the error in job title is down to relatives who requested it, as is SS instead of RMS

It was sunk in WW1 Bob so that theory goes out of the window. I have to agree MM stands for Merchant Marine. I note that second war graves have Merchant Navy or MN on them in the badge.

Do they have war graves without bodies?

There were other Lusitania's although I don't know if they existed at the same time?

I did think he might have been rescued but died later but the date is the date of the actual sinking. Getting more confused now!

Edit to say that if you look at the photo of the memorial to the Captain in my photo's that says of the Cunard SS (Steam Ship) line but says RMS Lusitania. I doubt he is buried there as well.
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 18:11

Teabag wrote:


Do they have war graves without bodies?

I was informed if a person was 'lost at sea' it was possible after the war if relatives paid for the stone? Worth checking on.

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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dandc
Lt Col
Lt Col
dandc

Number of posts : 383
Age : 69
Localisation : gateshead
Cap Badge : 15/19H.ARMY AIR CORPS
Places Served : tidworth, fallingbostle, detmold, hongkong, minden
Registration date : 2009-05-22

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 20:44

a little more info,the MM on the head stone stands for mercantile marine,the title merchant marine was not granted untill 1922 for services during ww1,[ could the description "chief steward" have been a family promotion?. [it reads better than bed maker].PS i am not in any way tring to belittle this mans life but in those days comfort of the passengers was paramount and there was all sorts of wierd job titles.
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Teabag

Number of posts : 960
Age : 69
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 21:15

I enquired about this from an expert on the Lusitania by the name of Peter Kelly. He sent me a very detailed report on this man and I have extracted a section. Anyone who wants the full report please pm and and I will copy and paste.
Thanks Peter.

Obviously he did not heed Mitchell’s advice for he perished in the sinking, although his body was later recovered from the sea.

It was landed at Queenstown, where it was initially given the reference number 92 in one of the temporary mortuaries there. However, his son-in-law Robert Beavan and a family friend, named Forsyth, who was also a Cunard official, travelled to Queenstown from Merseyside and after discovering it there, were able to make a formal and positive identification. It was then despatched to Messrs. Swan, Funeral Furnishers of Birkenhead, for interment.

This took place on Friday 14th May 1915 at Bebington Cemetery, Birkenhead, in the Church of England Section, in Grave D. 628, following a service at St. Peter's Church, Rock Ferry. This was conducted by The Reverend John Alban, M.A.. Amongst the mourners at the funeral, was Mr. J.E. Clark, who was General Secretary of The National Union of Ships' Stewards, in Liverpool.
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime7/7/2010, 22:58

So V McLeod, (Body 92) Ordinary Seaman and W McLeod, Steward are one and the same person!

After the sinking on 7th May to be 'later' recovered from the sea, moved Queenstown, identified, shipped to Liverpool and buried on the 14th May (within 7 Days) was pretty damn fast for 1915 I think?

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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jim
Let Gen
Let Gen
jim

Number of posts : 1291
Localisation : Sutton Coldfield
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Dad, Hamburg, Bad Oeynhausen, Iserlohn, Bury, Osnabruck, Worcester. Me Detmold, Bielefeld, NI, HK
Registration date : 2008-01-03

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime8/7/2010, 09:19

I can't see that somehow, that is too fast a turnaround for me Mike.
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Teabag
Maj Gen
Maj Gen
Teabag

Number of posts : 960
Age : 69
Localisation : Merseyside
Cap Badge : Royal Signals
Places Served : Wildenrath Detmold
Registration date : 2008-10-30

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime8/7/2010, 16:42

jim wrote:
I can't see that somehow, that is too fast a turnaround for me Mike.

Just found another one and he was buried in Birkenhead on the 11th. See my photo bucket page again.
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jim
Let Gen
Let Gen
jim

Number of posts : 1291
Localisation : Sutton Coldfield
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Dad, Hamburg, Bad Oeynhausen, Iserlohn, Bury, Osnabruck, Worcester. Me Detmold, Bielefeld, NI, HK
Registration date : 2008-01-03

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime9/7/2010, 09:55

Yes i saw that and your PM teabag, very informative.
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime9/7/2010, 11:37

Same here, thanks mate, It is surpising to say the least how quickly the bodies were returned to the UK!

What does surprise me about W McLeod is that time and effert was taken to bring him home, but no headstone was errected at the time! it was not put up untill 1997! 83 years later:

Quote :
No headstone was ever erected on his grave, at the time, and for over 80 years, it had no obviously identifiable location. Furthermore, the records of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission did not show him ever to have had an actual grave, until research by the author proved that this was actually in Bebington Cemetery. Up until then, his body was thought to have been missing, and as a result, his name is erroneously recorded on the Mercantile Marine Memorial to the Missing, at Tower Hill, London. However, after representations from the author, the Commission accepted that he was not commemorated where he was buried and on June 18th 1997, erected a permanent headstone on his grave, to rectify this omission.

This headstone was dedicated on 7th May 1998, the 83rd anniversary of his death, by The Reverend Peter McGrath, of the British and International Sailors’ Society and members of William McLeod’s family and others who had relatives on the Lusitania, in the presence of the Merseyside Branch of the Merchant Navy Association and the Royal British Legion, who carried appropriate standards.

Not that Cunard were quick in settling his affairs:

Quote :
She was also sent the sum of £4-9s-6d. (£4.47½p) by Cunard, which was the balance of wages owed to him.

Caroline McLeod died in 1924 and was buried in the same grave as her husband.

Compensation claims for the families of Lusitania victims took a long time to be settled and it was just after Caroline McLeod’s death that a cheque for £120-0s-0d., arrived at the family home. Because she, as next of kin, was no longer alive, the family was not entitled to the money and unable to encash the cheque, they had to send it back to Cunard!


_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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jim
Let Gen
Let Gen
jim

Number of posts : 1291
Localisation : Sutton Coldfield
Cap Badge : RAOC
Places Served : Dad, Hamburg, Bad Oeynhausen, Iserlohn, Bury, Osnabruck, Worcester. Me Detmold, Bielefeld, NI, HK
Registration date : 2008-01-03

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime12/7/2010, 10:44

That's interesting Mike, I'm surprised they couldn't claim it has her heirs?
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Mike_2817
LE Maj
LE Maj
Mike_2817

Number of posts : 643
Localisation : North Yorkshire
Cap Badge : RAOC
Registration date : 2009-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Medals and stuff   Medals and stuff - Page 3 Icon_minitime12/7/2010, 13:18

Information was courtesy of Teabag Jim, but yes I was surprised as well by some of the details.

_________________
Sua Tela Tonanti
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