AUSCHWITZ

I took my parents to Belsen when they came over to visit, I grant you not exactly a holiday destination but I wanted them to see the place. Even though there is not much to see my mum was in tears. A few years later I visited Dachau, very different. Belsen was razed to the ground, Dachau on the other hand is pretty much intact and although it must have ben hell on earth I hope it stays that way so everyone can see it, it should never be forgotten.

pinky wrote:

hi there,
good discussion.
Another thing that bugs me is the moderates rarely voice disgust at the radicals of there religon,faith or beliefs !! I have never seen or read in Alberta, Canada- the Muslim council attempt to stop any radicals,gang members or the likes from killing,breaking the law publicly.If the moderates can't stop there own,we have no chance.
Just my observation.
atb
pinky
HUSSAR

Not sure about that, actually. Here in Alberta there is an imam who heads up the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, Syed Soharwardy, who while he and I have had our differences on a few issues, is a moderate and frequently speaks out against the radicals and reactionaries within Islam. He condemns jihad, he criticizes forced marriages (not sure how he feels about arranged ones), is apparently not keen on burkha, niqab, etc. (although he's okay with hijab), and is "greatly saddened" by the use of violence within Islam, maintaining to do so is totally un-Islamic.

As for attempting to actively stop radicals and gang members from killing or breaking the law....I'm not sure how one goes about doing that. Certainly reporting any suspected or known activity to the police but at the same time protect oneself and ones family from repercussions. It's a thin line to walk.

I do happen to feel American Muslims and other Muslims in the West who do not share the reactionary views of extremists and who are, quite simply, just good Muslims practicing a religion they consistently insist in based on peace, need to be more forceful in speaking out and initiating that speaking out, not just doing it when sought out by media. But I think there is a tendency, and I do understand this, of not wanting to appear as if they are attacking their co-religionists or the religion itself....which they could without betraying the religion or other 'good' Muslims. Just as any member of a group (religious, ethnic, political, cultural, societal, etc) could speak out about those who misuse/abuse/betray the greater group.

Stephen Lock wrote:

pinky wrote:

hi there,
good discussion.
Another thing that bugs me is the moderates rarely voice disgust at the radicals of there religon,faith or beliefs !! I have never seen or read in Alberta, Canada- the Muslim council attempt to stop any radicals,gang members or the likes from killing,breaking the law publicly.If the moderates can't stop there own,we have no chance.
Just my observation.
atb
pinky
HUSSAR

Not sure about that, actually. Here in Alberta there is an imam who heads up the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, Syed Soharwardy, who while he and I have had our differences on a few issues, is a moderate and frequently speaks out against the radicals and reactionaries within Islam. He condemns jihad, he criticizes forced marriages (not sure how he feels about arranged ones), is apparently not keen on burkha, niqab, etc. (although he's okay with hijab), and is "greatly saddened" by the use of violence within Islam, maintaining to do so is totally un-Islamic.

As for attempting to actively stop radicals and gang members from killing or breaking the law....I'm not sure how one goes about doing that. Certainly reporting any suspected or known activity to the police but at the same time protect oneself and ones family from repercussions. It's a thin line to walk.

I do happen to feel American Muslims and other Muslims in the West who do not share the reactionary views of extremists and who are, quite simply, just good Muslims practicing a religion they consistently insist in based on peace, need to be more forceful in speaking out and initiating that speaking out, not just doing it when sought out by media. But I think there is a tendency, and I do understand this, of not wanting to appear as if they are attacking their co-religionists or the religion itself....which they could without betraying the religion or other 'good' Muslims. Just as any member of a group (religious, ethnic, political, cultural, societal, etc) could speak out about those who misuse/abuse/betray the greater group.

Says it all really! Suppose I couldn't start the Christian Supreme council of England and not get locked up could I?

Oh dear me Teabag,that is bordering on sectarianism

Funny what one gets "used to"....when Sohawardy first formed the Islamic Supreme Council I found the name to be a bit ominous. I wasn't exactly offended by it (takes a lot to do that after all these years on Earth) but it was sort of "what's with this bunch? Supreme Council this, High Council that...it's like something the Klingon Empire on Star Trek would come out with!" And it's not like Canadian Muslims had a huge meeting and all agreed this particular organization would be the supreme representation of their interests and goals; he just named it that. How much authority it carries, I can't say.

And teabag has a point....if he or whoever created an organization called the Christian Supreme Council...well, one of the first assumptions would be it was some sort of right wing, supremacist very likely racist/skinhead bunch of yobs. All sorts of reactions would set in. That, or it would be totally dismissed as some sort of weird fringe element, not to be taken seriously.

But, as I said, the ISC is a moderate voice, as is Soharwardy. I'm just not sure how much "pull" he has within the Muslim community, although I think he sees himself very much as a spokesperson for it. Certainly the media does.

To return to the very beginning of this thread; yes, the Russians did liberate Auschwitz - and promptly re-used it to lock up "dissidents". What a surprise!

I read the posts about Auschwitz. I have not visited that one. I was stationed not far from Bergen-Belsen in the 1960's and 70's and found it a very sad and moving experience. I have since inherited a load of photographs from an uncle who was R.A.F. and there at or soon after the liberation and those are even more harrowing.

In recent years,particularly since the collapse of the Iron Curtain, I have visited a number of other places in the former East Germany including Buchenwald, Nordahusen but... presumable because of the current 'education' policy they have all been turned into clean/sterilised environments with visitor centres, films, museums and even picnic areas! Belsen seems to have had a similar 'make over'. They are much easier to visit now but it is probably only the older ones amongst us who have any real insight into what it was like in 1944/45 when the liberating forces arrived.

If anyone wishes I can upload some photos or even parts of the unit diary of 309 Supply and transport Column (R.A.F.) from D. Day and Normandy right through France, Belgium, Holland and Germany up to the unit disbandment in Denmark.

In a similar vein I recently visited Colditz Castle and found that much restored and still undergoing restoration and turning into another visitor centre.

It is unfortunate, although not surprising, that such places have been sterilized and "made nice" (although I take bit of an issue with having picnic areas within them!!), the horror of the places would be too overwhelming, I'd say, for Joe Average and the family. But at the same time you don't really want to turn such camps into some Disneyfied holiday destination, which is what sounds like is happening.

Steve.L wrote:

IIf anyone wishes I can upload some photos or even parts of the unit diary of 309 Supply and transport Column (R.A.F.) from D. Day and Normandy right through France, Belgium, Holland and Germany up to the unit disbandment in Denmark.

In a similar vein I recently visited Colditz Castle and found that much restored and still undergoing restoration and turning into another visitor centre.

Sounds like a really good idea to post that Steve I'd like to see those items

Me too.They will be very welcome.

Post them Steve, anything wich adds to the historical record represented by this site has to be good.

BobG

I visited Colditz in 1994. Think the girl in the cafe was a throwback to when they held British prisoners in there because her attitude stunk. Could have been Stasi I suppose! Couldn't move around Eastern Germany for road works at the time.

Quote :

Couldn't move around Eastern Germany for road works at the time.

Sounds a little bit like where i am.

Gordon. wrote:

Quote :

Couldn't move around Eastern Germany for road works at the time.

Sounds a little bit like where i am.

Are you in Winnipeg Gordon?

WINTERPEG !
lol
atb
pinky
HUSSAR

I visited Colditz in 1993 Teabag. I agree, it was a bit of a scruffy place at the time. Even had the corpse of a cat under one of the buildings - probably a pet of one of the inmates. The little museum was also a bit of a letdown and not really organised for visitors then. But I suppose East Germany was trying to get back on its feet then what with grass growing down the middle of the Autobahn etc.

Jimsigs1

I have not forgotten my offer to post some WW2 photos. I am sorting out the items and trying to establish the best way to post them, either here as individual images of as a collection on Flikr. I am a bit concerned about some of the photos as some people, possibly not in this forum, may find them distressing although they relate to previously published subjects such as Belsen

Hello Steve L
re: subject Auschwitz
I'd like to see your pictures especially those of Belsen which I never got to see even though I was based nearby. However, did visit Dachau (Hitler's first Concentration Camp) on the edge of Munich. Will look forward to seeing your pictures.
Bob

Hi,

I tried uploading some photos yesterday but had a bit of a problem. I think they are now up with SERVIMG. I will have another attempt. sorry for the delay

I went to Auschwitz and also to River Kwai area in Thailand many years ago -- I c an show a few photos if you  like  -----