Canadian M-113 Rescuing a Royal Fusiliers' FV432

A friend of mine named Alex Itenson recently posted this photograph of M-113s and an FV432 on The Royal Canadian Regiment forum.  Alex served with 2RCR in Germany from 1966 to 1969.  At the time of the photo (1966 or early 1967) he was the platoon commander of 9 platoon and rode in c/s 33.  He recalls the location as Sennelager. "We often worked with the Brits in Germany but I do not recall whether this was when my platoon was attached to them or whether it was on exercise when we were playing the bad guys."

"The British APCs were no match for the M113s either in performance or build quality. They seemed rather primitive in comparison. The Brit track in the photo got stuck in the ditch and had to be towed out by us. This was the very same ditch that the 113s easily traversed, but not the Brit AFV."

As it happens another forum member named Ray Elliston seems to think that the photograph may have been taken at Haltern.  "The FV432 was one of four that was attached to 2RCR for the Haltern exercise.  It was a small unit exchange with the Royal Fusiliers which was stationed at Osnabruck.  The platoon commander was a Brit short service officer named James Gillman.  From Haltern we (Gillman's platoon and mine - 8 Platoon, 2RCR), redeployed to Osnabruck from whence we participated in the Soltau exercise with the Fusiliers."

A check of BAOR Locations shows 1RF quartered at Belfast Barracks, Osnabrück, until June, 1967. The Canadians are the ones wearing field service caps. The Brits are wearing berets.

Cheers,
Dan.

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Like a lot of British equipment the FV 432 was rushed through to production far too quickly.
We always thought the drive sprocket was either too big or in the wrong place. The thing couldn't keep up with the tanks on X-country so that made it immediately useless.

brum wrote:

The thing couldn't keep up with the tanks on X-country so that made it immediately useless.

With which tank couldn't the vehicle keep up?  Centurion, Chieftain or Challenger?

On a related note, in your opinion is an AIFV (like the Warrior) a suitable replacement for a multi-purpose vehicle like an APC?

Cheers,
Dan.

Dan

When the FV430 series vehicles were first introduced the Centurions were being phased out with Chieftain as the replacement

Related to Brum's comment the petrol fuelled Mk1 were a menace with red hot exhaust glowing in the dark. The numerous former REME vehicle mechanic contributors will doubtless comment on the relative reliability with the subsequent multifuel (in practice diesel) variants.

Challenger wasn't around in those days and I never saw a Chieftain leave a 432 his dust, they were both fairly slow. The Chieftain pack was the Leyland L60 which wasn't powerful enough. In fact I'm told the L60 was originally a routemaster (Bus) engine, however I will be corrected on that point.

As for the Warrior and it's varients, they were a great improvement on the FV 43 series of vehicles.

Dan M wrote:

brum wrote:

The thing couldn't keep up with the tanks on X-country so that made it immediately useless.

With which tank couldn't the vehicle keep up?  Centurion, Chieftain or Challenger?

On a related note, in your opinion is an AIFV (like the Warrior) a suitable replacement for a multi-purpose vehicle like an APC?

Cheers,
Dan.

An officer once had me chasing after a troop of Chieftain, Hohne ranges, I think.
While the tanks rolled smoothly over the bumps the 432 was leaping about like a mad thing. If I hadn't slowed down the blokes in the back would've been seriously damaged.
I have no experience of Warrior but I like the idea of a troop carrier that pack some decent armament. My son, (ex REME), speaks well of it.

Talk about Canadians rescuing a Brit FV432, I remember towing out a Canuk Jeep bogged down in heavy snow when I was in Korea. Got a pack of Sweet Caporals for my sins as a reward. Both the Canuk and US Jeeps were what we called the phase 2 types whilst we had the old WW2 versions.
Jimsigs

My friend Alex (who shared the photo in the opening post with us) asked me to add the following concerning the relative speed of the Centurion with the M-113.

"The tanks the Brits had in Germany at the time were Centurions which maxed out at under 20 mph.

On one occasion when we were working with the Brits and their Centurions, they really held us back. We could run cross-country at over 30-40mph.  I still recall the tank commander (a Lieutenant) sending over his radio in his very proper British accent: "33, We're going as fast as we can!""

Funny thing about tanks, you can heavy armour or speed, but you can't have both.

Cheers,
Dan.

Dan M wrote:

The Brit track in the photo got stuck in the ditch and had to be towed out by us. This was the very same ditch that the 113s easily traversed, but not the Brit AFV

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As an old hand on the 432 I looked at this photo with a suspicious eye.
That obstacle wouldn't stop a 432, dropping into 1-2 will get you out of worse than that hole.
I believe we're looking at a classic example of crap driving there.

Dan

Reference your last, but its firepower that counts

There was a story going around 4CMBG in Lahr, that when they finaly got their Leopard's that a tank driver got a speeding ticket, for speeding around the base. The word is that the Brigader paid the fine, he was so happy to have a tank that went over 50 kmh, didn't crap out and was running on re-re-re-built engines. I well remember sitting on the side of hill on exercise in our M 113 Radio Re-bro in 73 watching our Centurions advancing to contact and blowing their engines as they went one after another. Kind of sad. The Centurions left out in Western Canada were stuck out in CFB Wainwright to rot. Apparently the Isralies offered to buy them and beef them up as they had done with others. But of course our govt. in it's usual manner, blew that deal. Also remember seeing Isralie Centurions in Egypt that had be knocked out. For all the beefing up, they had the hell knocked out of them .

Wilf wrote:

Challenger wasn't around in those days and I never saw a Chieftain leave a 432 his dust, they were both fairly slow. The Chieftain pack was the Leyland L60 which wasn't powerful enough. In fact I'm told the L60 was originally a routemaster (Bus) engine, however I will be corrected on that point.

As for the Warrior and it's varients, they were a great improvement on the FV 43 series of vehicles.

You should have opened your eye's then! I spent most of my young days on Chieftain and yes it was unreliable (did get better) but it would leave a 432 for dust! Lost count of the amount of times we waited and waited for the Inf to catch up during an 'Advance to Contact'. I'll think you'll find the L60 design came from a marine engine.

Yes, t'iss I in the turrent of a Centurion , LDSH in Wainwright summer 1963. Nothing to do with me, but there was a fire power demo going on and the tank and two others were waiting to make their grand entrance. I was there farting around for rocket safety net for the Honest John rocket we were to fire.

Now you're probably wondering why this picture should be of interest. You'll notice that one of the tanks is in the distance doing it's thing. BUT... What gets my attention is to the left you'll notice an open box to the left of the 3rd man from the right. Well that box is the firing device for the Honest John Rocket. A bit later when it came time to fire the rocket, the Laucher Sgt. elbowed the young Lt. and says, " No way your pushing the button, I'm pushing the button .", the young Lt. elbows back and says, " No Sgt. I'm pushing the buttton". Well the count down is completed, they're bickering and the seconds add up. So the young Bdr. reaches in between to the two twerps and pushes the button. Rocket fires off and the LT & Sgt. look like the complete ass h*les    they are.

soprano54 wrote:

Wilf wrote:

Challenger wasn't around in those days and I never saw a Chieftain leave a 432 his dust, they were both fairly slow. The Chieftain pack was the Leyland L60 which wasn't powerful enough. In fact I'm told the L60 was originally a routemaster (Bus) engine, however I will be corrected on that point.

As for the Warrior and it's varients, they were a great improvement on the FV 43 series of vehicles.

You should have opened your eye's then! I spent most of my young days on Chieftain and yes it was unreliable (did get better) but it would leave a 432 for dust! Lost count of the amount of times we waited and waited for the Inf to catch up during an 'Advance to Contact'. I'll think you'll find the L60 design came from a marine engine.

Other than clouds of exhaust fumes I never saw a Chieftain leave anything in it's dust! I do remember them being very noisy and slow. However I bow to your greater knowledge on the subject.

Dan M wrote:

Funny thing about tanks, you can heavy armour or speed, but you can't have both.

Cheers,
Dan.

How true, like the Conqueror for example-65 tons 120 mm gun. In its day could take on any tank in the world.
When our regt moved from Nienburg to Paderborn we were to share Barker bks with the 10th Hussars.
We stood in awe one day, as a Conky of theirs went wailing past us. The beast turned left out of camp, up that hill that the camp stood on and slowed down so much that an old German farmer, on his bike, overtook it.

When I was in a Fitters Troop in support of Chieftain we were equiped with FV434, FV432 and Cent Arv. On a move we invariably waved the Sqn goodbye and hoped to catch up sometime in the new location before the next move was ordered, the only Chieftains we caught up with were broken down. It was only with the introduction of Warrior Repair Variants and Challenger ARRV, in support of Challenger MBT, did the Fitters Troops finally have the equipments to be able to keep up with the MBTs on the road and cross country.

brum wrote:

Dan M wrote:

Funny thing about tanks, you can heavy armour or speed, but you can't have both.

Cheers,
Dan.

How true, like the Conqueror for example-65 tons 120 mm gun. In its day could take on any tank in the world.
When our regt moved from Nienburg to Paderborn we were to share Barker bks with the 10th Hussars.
We stood in awe one day, as a Conky of theirs went wailing past us. The beast turned left out of camp, up that hill that the camp stood on and slowed down so much that an old German farmer, on his bike, overtook it.

Once while on a liquid visit to the 17th/21st Lancers at Sennelager I was invited between pints at the NAAFI to peruse their Conquerers. I sat in the commander's hatch in the turret and was amazed at how big a tank had such cramped quarters. Being something of a claustrophobic, I thanked the CO upstairs I went for the infantry where you have all the room you could ask for, and a lot more.

The lads didn't have many good things, if any, to say about the Conquerer; if you go to the 3rd Carabiniers web site you'll find a photo of a troop of Conquerers, captioned with an expression of (sarcastic) amazement that they're all in the field at the same time.