voucher token - canteen money

Hello,
I am new here and live in Saxony/Germany.
My question is:
I found some notgeld/emergency notes, issued as canteen money by the Brithish troopd in Germany;
but I don´t know if the chits used in post WWI or post WWII.
Who can help me? (I know: my English isn´t the best ...)
regards:
mh*s
ps: the money scrips show
2 pence Godesberg
1 penny Wuppertal
1 penny Hubbelrath
(where and how I can add these photos?)

mh*s

Welcome

Your canteen notes are almost certainly post World War 2

A number of us are very interested in the area you indicate.

My first thought is that the Godesberg (Bonn) chit could be a Guards Division unit. Hubbelrath (Dusseldorf) and Wuppetal units of 53 Welsh Division. Do you have a date for the documents?

thank you!
sorry, the notes are undated and I believe also that these are from 1948 and later.
Last year I wrote a catalog about the
"Military, Canteen and Camp Money issued by the Alliies in Germany" ...

mh*s

The type of print, the naming of the YMCA rather than NAAFI and the fact that the three locations named are along the Rhine leads me to think they are of the era of the original British Army of the Rhine of 1919.

These are strange.
I don't know about The Empire Club but the others are Christian establishments.
If these are indeed post WW2 then they were in use when the British forces were using BAFVS.
I wonder if the troops were being encouraged to have a cup of tea instead of drinking beer in the local pubs ?
(What is 1/6 of a mark ?).

the cover of my catalog show some token in worth of 1/6 Mark,
these are used from 1945 to June 1948 in canteens and were equal 1 Penny
(1 £ = 40 Reichsmark) ...
some other are known like these

Goldmohur

An interesting thought

There is relatively little readily available in English on the internet on the history of the "first" Rhine Army especially exact locations and an accurate map. However it was centred on Cologne and with a small bridgehead on the east bank of the Rhine with Dusseldorf . I found a couple of relevant German language sites and from this found that there was a British presence in Benrath (mid way between Cologne and Dusseldorf) but no mention of Dusseldorf proper, the Hubbelrath barracks complex which many of us are familiar were a late 1930's Hitler era build, and there definitely was no British Army presence in Wuppetal.

From this I think we can eliminate the 1919 Rhine Army but I need to visit my favourite military library in Aldershot to finally confirm

Brum

Thank you for the input

As we discussed elsewhere on this site in the immediate post WW2 era Bad Salzuflen was one of the major Control Commission Germany satellite Headquarters to the main HQ BAOR in Bad Oeynhausen. It was way outside the 1919 era British Army zone of occupation.

I believe the Empire Club must have been some form of Civil Service, not military, sponsored Social Centre. The YMCA and the Salvation Army Red Shield organisation were reknown throughout WW2 for their willingness and ability to organise various forms of social centres for servicemen and women even very close to the Front line. This continued after VE Day particularly where the very strict "No Fraternisation" rules (ie no social contact with Germans) were in force in 1945.

From the evidence I have I am now certain that the vouchers therefore date from the immediate post war 1945 era.

As many know Steve and I have a very significant amount of information on the British Army in Germany which is yet to be published on this site.

From this we can date the Bad Godesberg voucher. This area was captured by the American Army in Spring 1945 but was part of the British Zone of Occupation. In Summer 1945 the Guards Division therefore moved south from the Cuxhaven Peninsular to Cologne area, they then handed the area over to a Division of the newly formed Belgian Army in Spring 1946 and moved back north to Schleswig Holstein. I also know that Headquarters Guards Division and 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards were based in Bad Godesberg throughout this time. We therefore can date the Bad Godesberg voucher as being used between late July 1945 and March 1946.

Steve is the lead for 53 (Welsh) Infantry Division and may be able to add the equivalent details for Hubbelrath and Wuppertal when he next drops by.

The use of local vouchers not BAFVs is an interesting but as yet unknown part of BAOR history.

some other British army items I found in the past years,
but I can not locate these,
e. g.: 1 + 3 d. (I am sure these were used since 1948, after the monetary reform in West Germany, alongside the BAFSV)

JPW wrote:

Goldmohur

Steve is the lead for 53 (Welsh) Infantry Division and may be able to add the equivalent details for Hubbelrath and Wuppertal when he next drops by.

The use of local vouchers not BAFVs is an interesting but as yet unknown part of BAOR history.

Thanks JPW

In Iserlohn in those early days there were
YMCA Harmonie Club – Bahnhofstrasse
YWCA Elizabeth Club – Westergrabenstrasse

Can confirm the following 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division units from 8 Jun 45 were in Hubblerath
HQ 160th Infantry Brigade – Llanelly Barracks formally Flak Kaserne formed 4th Infantry Brigade Apr 47
4th Battalion Welch Regiment – Llanelly Barracks to Lippstadt and Erwitte Castle Jun 46
Jul 46 – 1st Battalion East Lancashire Regiment from Oberhausen – Llanelly Barracks to UK Jun 47
Jun 47 – 1st Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers from Gevelsburg to Berlin Apr 49
Gort Barracks formally Flak Kaserne units unknown until early 1950s

and Wuppertal
53rd Reconnaissance Regiment RAC – Anglesey Barracks formally Sagan Kaserne merged with North Irish Horse who arrived from Austria via Hilden Jan 46 and disbanded Jul 46
69th (Caernarvonshire and Denbighshire Yeomanry) Medium Regiment RA – possibly Harding Barracks formally Colmar Kaserne disbandment unknown
Jul 46 – 14th/20th King's Hussars from Lüneburg – Anglesey Barracks to UK Dec 46
Aug 46 – 2nd Battalion South Wales Borders from Solingen – Harding Barracks to UK Nov 46
Dec 46 – 2nd Battalion Grenadier Guards from Berlin – Harding Barracks to UK Dec 47
Apr 47 – 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division forms 2nd Infantry Division
2 Jul 48 – 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment to Wavell Barracks Berlin Apr 50
BHQ – HQ and B Company – Anglesey renamed Manchester Barracks
A – C and D Company – Bangor Barracks formally Saarburg Kaserne
Detachment – Harding Barracks

Keightley Barracks formally Wald Kaserne from 24 July 46 was the German hospital Wuppertal-Ronsdorf then 31 Jul 51 taken over by BAOR and the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers arrived from Müster to Berlin Nov 52

I saw one of those vouchers in 1952. An old (to us - he was 39!) Sgt who had been in Baor since the end of the war and been transferred to our unit from the Manchester Regt c. 1948 had kept one as a souvenir. It was from YMCA Wuppertal.

Steve

Thank you for your authoritive additions

ms*h

I think D in this context is the abbreviation for a British penny not German mark.

I would not dream of contradicting anyone.

My father was billetted in Benrath in 1919 and he had his 21st birthday in that place - now a smart suburb of Duseldorf. I went to Benrath in Jan 62 on my own 21st birthday for my own benefit and also to amuse him. The British units were strung out in the towns and cities along the Rhine from Dusseldorf to Cologne.

The original headquarters of the Army of the Rhine was a hotel in Cologne - see Sir D Haig`s fianl despatch. There is a famous picture of two 1918 tanks on the forecourt of Cologne Cathedran and also some RN sorts from the Rhine Flotilla.

Goldmohur

Fascinating, had not realised your particular interest. What Regiment was your father with in Benrath in 1919?

JPW wrote:

Steve

Thank you for your authoritive additions

ms*h

d in this context is the abbreviation for aa British peny not German mark.

These tokens puzzle me.
In '59-'60 while BAFSVs were in common use we still used 3d bits as small change. (I can't remember what the smallest denomination of BAFSV was).
There used to be a coffee machine in the entrance to our NAAFI, in Nienburg and that took threepences. (Usually refusing to give out coffee too !).

There was an Empire Club in Borden Garrison, in 1962, serving the RASC(RCT) and REME Training centres. I don't think it was a religious concern, as they sold a godawful pint, but you could get a good meal cheaply.

@brum:

the smallest denomination of BAFSV were the 3 pence notes,
first series Aug. 46 - March 48,
second series Jan. 48 - Nov. 59 (in the UK sector in West Berlin until 1971)
the brown one penny and a half penny plastic coins were in use until Oct. 59.

mh*s

He was originally in the Yorkshire Hussars - Cycle patrols on the Yorkshire Coast. But at the time in Benrath he was a member of the Labour Corps. He had not left the UK before Nov 1918. He was a conscript and had poor eyesight.

He told me long ago that it was necessary to demobilise all those who had seen active service. Men like him were kept in the Army. He said his Labour Corps unit was abruptly divided into two. Half went to Belgium and France to work of war cemeteries. His portion went to Germany.

He did have one skill. He was a good amateur pianist. He was the pianist for the silent movies of the day. The mobile cinema unit travelled between the units putting on shows. He loathed soldiering and the Army. He spoke well of the German people and households in which he stayed.

There is a photograph. All his comrades look like good soldiers. He is holding a cigarettte and has white sports shoes on his feet. "Excused Boots!" he said.

Notwithstanding his lowly medical grade he lived until he was 95 and viewed this fact with satisfaction.

mh*s wrote:

@brum:

the smallest denomination of BAFSV were the 3 pence notes,
first series Aug. 46 - March 48,
second series Jan. 48 - Nov. 59 (in the UK sector in West Berlin until 1971)
the brown one penny and a half penny plastic coins were in use until Oct. 59.

mh*s

Ah yes !
I remember now.
Thank you.

I know Egypt is obviously off the beaten track for BAOR subjects but when thinking about voucher/tokens used by the British Army during the post war era, I can remember plastic tokens issued by NAAFI in Egypt in the amount of Green = 1 penny & Red = half penny. Got some up in the loft. Will get them down and photograph them.
Jimsigs

mh*s wrote:

@brum:

the smallest denomination of BAFSV were the 3 pence notes,
first series Aug. 46 - March 48,
second series Jan. 48 - Nov. 59 (in the UK sector in West Berlin until 1971)
the brown one penny and a half penny plastic coins were in use until Oct. 59.

mh*s

Note - Not sure about scale?

1d & ½d BAF Coins introduced 1946  [I am in fact looking for a set for my collection]




NAAFI/EFI POGS Change Tokens Afganistan 2009 - All NAAFI goods priced in U.S. Dollars

Hi Mike,

Great collection. Didn't know the military continued the practice of money tokens, especially for Afganistan. I wonder if there were tokens during the two Iraq wars.

Jimsigs

Yes NAAFI/EFI started to issue POGs as change in 2005, before that if you purchased a 75c Bottle of Coke and gave a Dollar you got no change as they dealt in notes only, and introduced Cardboard POGs as change, and of course 100's were lost, washed, taken home so NAAFI were quids in! and of course people collect them.

Look here:

https://sites.google.com/site/malstokens/efi

and here for U.S. Forces AAFES versions which date back to 2001

http://www.shopmyexchange.com/exchangestores/pog.htm

Mike,
The mind boggles. Not aware of such a comprehensive collection. Thanks for that.
Bit different to the NAAFI tokens issued in Egypt 1955, which were green and red tokens.
These are the ones we had then :
Jimsigs

Mike

The BAOR BAFSV one penny formica token was roughly the size of a conventional one penny copper coin if my memory is correct.

I can honestly say I don't remember any sort of token for the penny or ha'penny.
I was posted to BAOR in early '59.