Why so many Army numbers?

Dear Baor,

Just passing on information about my Grandfather Charles William Martin Page in the hope you may have more information about his service in WWI.

He was born in 1898 in Birmingham and by 1917 he was serving as a Private in the Army Service Corps as a Motor Driver. These are the details on my mother's birth certificate, she was Violet Elise Page.
From different sources I have found the following information that relates to him, as below, which shows different Army numbers.
He, however, did not marry my Grandmother but instead married a German girl in 1920 while in Cologne so my mother was born illegitimately. So he was serving in German long after the end of WWI.

From 1918 Absent voters list
13 Alfred Place, Osler Street, Rotton Park Ward. Birmingham - M/279643, M.T, ASC 1st Bn.

From 1919 Absent voters list
13 Alfred Place, Osler Street, Rotton Park Ward, Birmingham - M/279643, M.T ASC.

1920 December 14th Command 585 M.T. Coy. R.A.S.C. at Cologne
Marriage between Charles William Martin Page and Katherine Schnicels Schiley (widow) in Cologne, father to Katherine is Heinrich Schnicels, Postman.

1921 electoral roll
13 Alfred Place, Osler Street, Birmingham - M/18795 L/Cpl., RASC

I know the majority of WWI records were destroyed in WWII but I was wondering if you might have more information about his service in the R.A.S.C. at this time and why he had so many Army numbers?

Any additional information on my Grandfather or where he served would be extremely welcome.

Yours sincerely
Phil B
Sutton Coldfield

Regtl/Army Numbers  - as always looking for something more specific - came across this "Blog" which may explain to some how the Services (Army) counts soldiers.

Before there were Record and Pay Offices there were Regimental Nominal Rolls, Acquitance Rolls, Medal Rolls, Burial Rolls listing membership, pay, honours and awards, and where the fallen lay.  (and one suspects the Quartermaster had his own Rolls to account for his stores, and the Rum Issue).

Here is the site to while away a few hours (can give no guarantees have yet to try the patience of the operator     ):

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.de

Pborn4 wrote:

Regtl/Army Numbers  

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.de

Hello Pborn4, thanks for this. I've had a look at this website but there is a specific mention about the A.S.C. and I quote...
   
"Notable exclusions are The Labour Corps and The Army Service Corps. I do not hold data for these corps and neither have I attempted to work out meaning from their baffling service number series."

So if this guy has trouble with these numbers what chance do us mortals stand?
Thanks anyway, cheers  Phil

Wonder if the ASC gave its bods Part Nos (before the NATO Stock Nos) added them to a catalogue - the M prefix in the example above (Pte Page) may indeed be trade identifier

Another source: https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Service_Number


GSC (General Service Corps) held attested but unposted personnel who got a number when they went to their career unit. (In modern times I knew an ex RSM who was commissioned but held in the GSC until an Infantry Regt claimed him - he kept his GSC Greatcoat with every button bearing the Royal Coat of Arms)
Labour Corps and Army Service Corps contained both Trained Soldiers (wounded or temporarily incapacitated and relocated from Colour Regts) who kept their identifying number if the stay would be temporary, otherwise with untrained "labour" were given numbers under the Army Order 388 rule. Frequent re-allocation from a Colour Unit to Labour Corps, night be for soldiers who had contracted Malaria - for which there is no cure - but to be relocated away from "Malaria areas"

Pborn4 wrote:

Another source:  https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Service_Number

Hi Pborn4,
I just visited this website and the link to the R.A.S.C. page says "please update your account" , so no luck there.

I don't know if this helps.... on his Medal Roll Card there are two regimental numbers which are M. 279643 and EMT. 43886 and his Medal Roll number is RASC/101.B.167 page 17054.

Thanks again Phil

Let us assume that with his first ASC Unit your G Father was given a service number special to that War time (1918) Unit, M279643. That identified him and would be inscribed on the medals to which he was entitled. (along the rim). Not sure what the number EMT 43886 means but the Medal Roll Number RASC/101.B.167 page 17054 refers to the actual Medal Roll and personal detail passed to the Army Medal Office (to Order and make the entitled War Medals) . These Medal Rolls are bound booklets and are in the National Archive (PRO) Kew, London

Then he was posted to the MT Coy ASC based in the new BAOR and was given an new Regimental Number - It took a while allocating numbers to those who were staying and skipping the people who were discharged to civvie street.

By 1921 Army Order 388 was fully applied and all soldiers were given an Army Number allocated according Corps/Cap Badge - see the list on the arrse.co.uk pages.

Getting away from the personal number Pte/Lcpl Page carried, you will find out more about the structure of his life at RLC Museum (progression ASC > RASC > RCT > RLC)
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-army-service-corps-in-the-first-world-war/
http://www.rlcmuseum.co.uk/

www.orbat.info/history/volume5/518/Original%20BAOR.pdf

or by a personal viisit to RLC MUseum at Deepcut?

http://www.rlcarchive.org/ pay per view unfortunately

OR Take a trip to your local Library and take advice from the Librarian to get historical books on loan under the BDLSS system (http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/atyourdesk/docsupply/productsservices/loan/ )

Pborn4, thanks again for the information and links.
When searching the 'rlcmuseum' site it throws up an "Enlistment Book" listing for Grandfather Charles using the 18795 number. I will contact them with the all the information I have and see if they can help.
Thanks again, Phil

Ref my: Subject: Re: Why so many Army numbers? numbers - Why so many Army numbers? Icon_minitime18/1/2018, 10:17

Further to this I have borrowed from another site (Tom Woodward 25 Fd Regt RA) the following Army Number / JS Number crib:

SERVICE NUMBER
A Service Number is issued to all military personnel.
This page concerns only Army numbers, as the Crabs and Andrew have (until recently) their own system.
The third system was introduced during WW2. Large numbers of men were being conscripted and sent to a central depot where they had their medicals and were allocated a number BEFORE being posted to a regiment. It was too much of an admin cluster for the central depots to administer the old regimental numbers so a single system of army (as opposed to regimental) numbers was introduced.
These numbers were allocated in blocks in the 14xxxxxx, 16xxxxxx and 19xxxxxx series. It was this process that was rationalised into the 1950-2007 numbering system.
A Rough Guide - 1950 to date
Army Number Date of Issue
22000000 to 22199408 Until October 1950
22199409 to 22460786 Until February 1951
22460787 to 22562759 Until July 1951
22562760 to 23052500 Until June 1955
23052501 to 23188252 Until October 1955
23188253 to 23479123 Until May 1956
23479124 to 23845071 Until October 1960
The final intake of National Servicemen was on 31st December 1960.
The last National Servicemen left the Army in 1963 with 23819209 Private Fred Turner, of The Army Catering Corps, attached 13th/18th The Royal Hussars, being the final conscript discharged on 7th May 1963. (Other conscripts may have signed on, retained their number, and soldiered on according to contract.)
23845072 to 23969619 Until April 1964
23969620 to 24033484 Until October 1964
24033485 to 24057159 Until April 1965
24057160 to 24076468 Until December 1966
24076469 to 24182226 Until April 1969
24182227 to 24262662 Until September 1971
24262663 to 24302033 Until September 1972
24302034 to 24315610 Until January 1973
24315611 to 24322198 Until February 1973
24322199 to 24355527 Until August 1974
24355528 to 24369281 Until September 1975
24369282 to 24475540 Until May 1978
24475541 to 24520161 Until March 1979
24520162 to 24579860 Until August 1980
24579861 to 24587118 Until March 1981
24587119 to 24753060 Until December 1985
24753061 to 24854044 Until November 1988
24854045 to 25012465 Until January 1992
25012466 to 25027818 Until July 1993
25027819 to 25065603 Until July 1997
25065604 to 25130600 Until February 2001
25130601 to 25136865 Until August 2001
25136866 to 25139703 August 2001
25139704 to 252xxxxx to March 2007
There'll be a little 'wiggle' room in those dates as numbers used to be/were allocated to the individual Manning and Records Offices in blocks.
Thus a lower number may post date a higher number - according to cap badge.

From Apr 2007 new tri service all ranks system thanks to JPA starting at 30000001. (includes Officers)