Wearing civvies outside camp

Hi all,

When I was in BAOR [1951-1952] we were not allowed to wear civvies outside the camp, except for sports kit when moving to a sports field.
Uniform, and the only concession was shoes instead of boots

I believe much later, you had to wear civvies unless on duty? Is this correct?

When was this rule changed?

Cheers
Tony

i dont think it was a change in the rules as such just a change in soldiers attitude,i remember when the only way out of camp was via the main guard room,the full lenth mirror and the warning, ADJUST YOUR DRESS.

I remember around 1986 we were not allowed into the main NAAFI( Sedan Strasse) in Osnabruck in shorts , t-shirts & trainers.I had been posted by then so ............ hey-ho.
There was also a runour around the same time that the Green Howards when outside camp in sports kit( Regimental tracksuit) had to jog/run. Don't know how much truth there is in that one though.

I can remember when the Guard Commander or the duty RP(if you were lucky enough to get out of camp by day)decided if you were up to standard and allowed to leave Barracks!And in those days you were back in Camp to hear "lights out",one minute after 2300hrs meant 7 days " jankers".I remember at Wolfenbuttel the last tram from Brunswick used to stop at the bottom of the hill at about 2250hrs,and you had about a kilometer up the hill to go,did'nt need any PT in those days!
Oh happy days.
-----
Don

I arrived in BAOR February 1952, Uniform only was the dress at that time, so just before my first 3 week leave back to Blighty I wrote to Gieves the Military Tailors in Camberwell requesting a set of 'Blues' .. they wrote back and made an appointment for me, on my first day home, they would send a representative to my home and measure me (those were the days of true service), anyhow he arrives takes all my particulars, making it a rush job so I could take them back with me .. after he had finished measuring me up he asked and what rank sir, 'Corporal' I replied, he bloody nigh fell over as he thought I was a Rupert .. but they mad a well fittings suit of Blues for me in time for me to take back .. only thing was I stuck out like a sore thumb amongst the other squaddies, just another Signals cpl in an out troop had a set .. I didn't mind the many 'Guten Abend Herr-General' that came my way because of the wide red stripe on Signals dress uniform, but when I was on Osnabruck station waiting for a buddy and an old lady asked me, 'ist das der Zug für Munchen' .. that took the biscuit. About two months later the order was posted that civvies were allowed, but with restrictions on types of dress ..

Len(Ciphers)

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies; yes you had to pass the guard room; but they didnt look too closely as it was easy to conceal a small tin of coffee in each sock and plenty of packets of cigs around your body!!!

Different barracks may also have had own rules; drunks in civvies was better than in uniform!!

That old lady on Osnabruck station may have been on the high level instead of the low level, maybe you had been waving your arms about, did you have a green flag!!
Those German railway timetables were so easy to understand.

Fun days.
Cheers
Tony

Ciphers
Gieves made a me civvy suit in 1952-cost£22! I was getting £2 10s a week then.

On wearing uniform vs civvies-Although I was'nt serving, those who were, were at least discouraged from wearing uniform outside ,while the "troubles" were on in the 80s.

Did the Army have an ET room just inside camp gates? At least one RAF station did. No I did not go inside to look.

Not BAOR but it was a hell of a lot easier to hitch hike in uniform than in civvies until it was banned thanks to our friends from the Emerald Isle.

Hitched from Catterick on many an occasion and once a staff car pulled up to offer us a lift on the A1. Being in basic training, we weren't sure what the hell to do when we saw two officers sitting in the back. They were very nice and gave us a lift as far as York.

One guy was picked up by Brian Clough and his family and obviously all they talked about was football.

Interesting....With the Canadians, I don't remember the uniform vs civvies thing at all, altough it is quite possible during our first tour (59-62) the Canadians may have had such a requirement. I was only 6 or 7 years old and I'm 54 now (oy!). I certainly remember guys in uniform, of course, outside barracks but of course they'd stick in a kid's head, wouldn't they? Guys in civvies were just guys in civvies....

On our 2nd tour, I know there wasn't any such requirement...in fact, quite the opposite; I think heading out for a night on the town in uniform was distinctly DIScouraged.

I know the Belgiques almost all wore their uniforms when off the Kaserne, but not all of them did. Mind you, most of them were drafted, weren't paid a helluva lot, and probably dressed in uniform as an economic factor as much as anything.

Thing is, when in uniform the poor buggers were obvious targets for any pissed up soldier (or teenage boy, for that matter) looking for a fight. The Belgiques always seemed a bit confused by that, never really understanding why...weren't we all there with NATO? Weren't we all supposed to be comrades-in-arms? I always felt sorry for them.

When I was back in Soest in 73-74, which by then was British and Belgique rather than Canadian and Belgique, the sqaddies were never in uniform (hell, if 9/10s of them had had their way, they'd barely stay long dressed in civvies....but that's a different story LOL), so clearly if there had been regs about wearing uniform outside of barracks, it was long done with by then.

Teabag wrote:

Not BAOR but it was a hell of a lot easier to hitch hike in uniform than in civvies until it was banned thanks to our friends from the Emerald Isle.

Hitched from Catterick on many an occasion and once a staff car pulled up to offer us a lift on the A1. Being in basic training, we weren't sure what the hell to do when we saw two officers sitting in the back. They were very nice and gave us a lift as far as York.

One guy was picked up by Brian Clough and his family and obviously all they talked about was football.

I was in a pub in Bunny near Nottingham,on way back from OSDD Nottingham.
Eating lunch,the guys on the next table nattered non stop about football, which I hate. When paying the biill,asked the barman "Who were those guys?".He showed me the sign on the door ."Cloughy's Bar" Is it still there?

I remember the fella's who served in Hanover when the Canadians first came back to Germany telling me that uniform was the dress of the day in our out of the base. When I arrived in Germany in 64 dress was civilian when leaving, but it wasn't unusual to see some one in Friede's , Molly Bar, Broadway Bar or the Ranch House still in uniform around 2200-2300 hrs. Depending who was Gd. Com. on the gate was decided if you could wear jeans on going out. Mind I did end up in Dortmond one Friday night in combats. Enough said about that. The one time I wore uniform (T.W.'s) to the UK I had this lovely older woman buying me my beer at Paddington Station and reliving the Canadian Troops in the UK in 39-45.

Hardrations wrote:

Mind I did end up in Dortmond one Friday night in combats. Enough said about that.

No no...we wanna hear about that! LOL Sounds like a helluva story attached to it.

As for hitch-hiking in uniform....I can well imagine it would be easier to get a lift in uniform. My dad always stopped to give a fellow-soldier a lift but was real iffy about those in civvies unless it was obviously a soldier. And you can spot a soldier-in-civvies a mile away, at least I used to be able to. Not being around Army much anymore, and with so many guys buzzing their heads or sporting High'n'Tight type cuts, it's not so easy as it was back in the 70's.

When I returned to Germany in '73 I often hitch-hiked around on weekends or holidays. It was relatively easy to get a ride back then, even though I clearly was NOT military.

The only time I had a problem was one long weekend I decided to hitch-hike down to Lahr. I got stuck in Mannheim (a big American base was there, tied in with the one in Frankfurt, I think). I had a helluva time getting out of there and finally broke down and slogged the long walk back into town to the Bahnhof and took a train. I think I looked "too American" and the local population was not overly enthused about the Yanks.

I tried to get directions to the rail station, auf Deutsch, and was usually ignored. Not something I was at all used to all.

Early 60's walking out dress was optional in Minden, But it was rare to see anyone go out in uniform for two main reasons. You had to pass through the guardroom on your way out and the senior RP NCO would inspect. Now these guys were Regimental police, and abuse of power was second nature to them, also they were on duty and you were going out. Or were you? RSM's inspection was a doddle in comparison. Another reason was if you were in the guardroom on your way out. All smart and shiny there was always that chance that you would get hijacked for guard duty if one of the picket was ill, scruffy, or for some other obscure reason dreamt up by the RP's.
Speaking of low paid soldiers I think the Spanish, in Franco's time took some beating. We used to watch the change the guard on the frontier. The new guard marched up, they did a bit of posturing, then old and new sat down and changed shoes a bit more posturing and the old guard marched off.
My mate and I both spoke reasonable Spanish and used to drink in La Linea, where we would often spot two lads sharing a 4 pesata bottle of beer, Spanish conscripts. On talking to them we discovered a Pte in the Spanish army would have to be in for 12 years to earn what we earned in 1 week. I made a few bob selling Spanish army kit to septic sailors.

yep those inspections were a bore,it wasent worth going out sometimes,because if someone on the gate wasent your mucker or was in a bad mood, you might as well stay in.

First time allowed out in civvies at Arborfield, got told at the guard room to go and polish my shoes, Sgt didn't even look up from his newspaper when he said it! I'm a bit slow so it took me a couple of do's before I cottoned on, just go for a walk come back and generally you were let out!

Then there was always the famous "Hole In the Fence". I think every Canadian Barracks had one. It spared its users a lot of nonsense at the main gate, both going and coming.

recce83 wrote:

Then there was always the famous "Hole In the Fence". I think every Canadian Barracks had one. It spared its users a lot of nonsense at the main gate, both going and coming.

Hole in the fence. You wouldn't be remembering 5 mark Annie up in Soest would you ?

Can't say that I recall the lady. The hole in the fence most used by us went out by the ball field at Fort St. Louis (later Albuhera Barracks) that also featured an inviting path leading to Zum Forsthaus a couple of hundred yards away. On that note, can anyone confirm whether or not the pub is still there? I can't see it on Google earth unless it's hidden in the trees.

recce83 wrote:

Then there was always the famous "Hole In the Fence". I think every Canadian Barracks had one. It spared its users a lot of nonsense at the main gate, both going and coming.

I think every barracks, period, had one!

When I was working in Soest, I lived up on Lendringser Weg...not far from the PMQs and directly across the backend of one of the Belgique Kasernes (Adam, I think...way over on the south side anyway). I KNOW they had a hole in the fence because I'd see the guys -- assuming I was home before them that evening (I was out more than I was ever in!) -- crawl through and hustle, down and low, to their respective barracks. I used to also see them exiting. I remember one acquaintance of mine wasn't supposed to be out at all, I forget the reason and circumstances, but he had bipped through the Hole in the Fence and headed off downtown anyway. Don't know if Belgique redcaps did a recon on him or not. One would think they'd check up to make sure he was abiding by his confined to barracks rule, but perhaps not.

I know for sure the squaddies utilized a variety of H-it-F (Holes in the Fences) both coming and going but so many of them always seemed to get caught coming back in....somebody somewhere wasn't very bright!

As a young singley in the early 80's it used to infuriate me that we had to dress "smartly" when booking out of camp, yet we would see the "pads" coming in to check the mail on a Saturday wearing shorts and flip flops !

That was the army for you - one rule for the pads and another entirely for those of us who lived on camp !!

Thre was a well established hole in the fence at Glamorgan Barracks Duisburg in 1963. We few junior NCOs who lived in turned a blind eye to its existence at the back of the block. Enter new RSM who ordered that it be sealed. Quickly and cunningly it was reopened and sealed up again.Life went on with more sealing and more unsealing.

Then the RSM sent for the junior NCOs and proclaimed that we were condoning this and there must take proper responsibilty. NCOs were to guard the hole day and night in addition to all other duties and this would go on until we learned to assert ourselves. This was winter so it was some chore and naturally the past users with great amusement refrained from entering or leaving by this route.

One cold night a Gunner weaved his drunken way along the street at the back of the barracks. Arriving at the hole, he blearily surveyed the tempting sight. An arm bearing a Cpl`s stripes reached out and yanked him in. So now we had a scalp to claim to allow us to stand down. Then the chap was duly charged and the hole sealed. One dark night some time later the RSM was mysteriously beaten up necessitating his posting and replacement.

I think I need a 'translation' on the term "pads"...I think it refers to those living in married quarters?

Sorry to hear about the RSM being beaten up and subsequently being transferred.

While I am sure his cracking down on what he perceived as NCOs being slack re the hole in the fence and assigning you all extra duty...no doubt that went over like a lead balloon and I can quite understand that...it was his responsibility to ensure the hole was, and remained, sealed. No doubt he was getting reamed out by his superiors so as the saying goes...shit flies down the ranks.

To beat up an RSM...well, it strikes me as pretty bad form, actually. His ruling clearly was not popular. Welcome to the army, right? Unless his orders were putting people in serious jeopardy, "mysteriously" being beaten up is...well....really bad re discipline within the ranks.

I'd hate to think my dad, who was a Warrant Officer and so a Senior NCO would be at risk for a beating because someone didn't like his orders/rules/the way he did things, whatever.

Young soldiers sneaking out through a hole in the fence is kind of funny, and we all know it happened more often than not, and we also all know most turned a blind eye to it, and yes the ruling that one had to be "presentable" before leaving barracks, be back by a certain time, etc. was (and is) a pain in the butt, but to beat up an RSM for enforcing existing rules and expecting his NCOs to follow through as well strikes me as a bit much.

My father was a Flight Sergeant (1914-1939.)

He was on the square drilling some flight or other when an officer who had been watching asked "Why do you treat your men like dogs?"

"Because they are dogs sir " was his reply.

PC? What would have followed that today?

I quite agree regarding the RSM doing his duty and that he had a right to expect loyalty from his NCOs etc. We had had RSMs before this one and we had RSMs afterwards, all of the normally terrifying type. This particular one did not look martial and he had a tendency to snoop around. The barrack blocks were large, accomodating a couple of hundred men or so, and discipline and standards were reasonable. The hole in the fence had gradually become part of the scene and was tacitly accepted even though this was wrong.

The actual beating up took place downtown some weeks/months later on a Saturday night when he attempted to get some Gunners, the worse for drink, to return to barracks. A brawl started, the guard was called to the scene and the German police. It turned out the the guard was made up of members of the same Battery as the fighters so they did not do their duty with much vigour. When all were back at the Guardroom a further mellee began during which the prisoners were let out. It was dawn before order was restored. There was a huge court martial in due course.

These events took place in the year of the "Poison Dwarf" troubles which started in Minden and involved a number of major BAOR units, probably 1962 or 1963.

""Poison Dwarfs

During the cold war a Scottish regiment based in a German town developed a bad reputation for drunkenness, fighting and general bad behaviour. The soldiers were hated by the local Germans and were given the name “Poison Dwarfs” by the town’s media.""

The Cameronians 1962..if i recall correctly'

Resulted in restrictions throughout BAOR.One being that all privates and equivalent ranks had to book in and out of camp.