Thoughts

What are people's thoughts on the Conservatives proposing that we pull out of Germany altogether? I understand we have something like 20,000 service personnel over there at the moment.


I can't imagine the British army not having bases in Germany personally but perhaps that's just the way it has always been in my life time?

Mayb we should pull loads out, then treat Germany as a training ground from Uk?

Hi
Where did you read this .

Brian

Brian wrote:

Hi
Where did you read this .

Brian

On the news today. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/20/tories-may-pull-out-troops

Teabag wrote:

What are people's thoughts on the Conservatives proposing that we pull out of Germany altogether? I understand we have something like 20,000 service personnel over there at the moment.

I can't imagine the British army not having bases in Germany personally but perhaps that's just the way it has always been in my life time?

I have just had a quick look at the article - and my personal thoughts are that someone needs to get their head out of their

The Shadow Defence Secretary states that it would free up resources for other NATO operations. Where does the prat think that a lot of the British contribution is coming from now!!! Outer Mongolia?!?!

Plus the fact - where are they going to put about 20,000 troops PLUS the attached families??

Can you imagine the reaction from the German people to the fact that those who were on the other side of the Iron Curtain 20 years ago will now have a hand in their defence!!

Paul.

I agree. Where does one put ALL those people? I have a feeling that the Germans possibly pay something towards our being there.

The knock on effect to the local economy will also be felt very hard in some locations as well.

The British Army has become an accepted and welcome part of the German Communuty.It is a good place to live,with excellent training areas.Most importantly it gives a very influential part of our society insight into life on the Continent,from my experience I would say soldiers who have served in Europe are more European than the average Brit.And personally I think its a good thing that we should keep an armed presence in mid Europe.And yes,the Germans pay their bit in keeping our soldiers in Germany,and yes again,in the Garrison areas they are an important part of the local economy.
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Don

Can you imagine this?

If we go through with the withdrawl of British troops from Germany?
The next generation of Forces will never savour the delights of an original (on location) 'Brattie mit pommes' and half a litre of the local beer!

My mind now shudders at the thought!!!!!!!!!!

Alan

The Tories have never been the friend of the Forces that they like to claim they are. The current situation is just being used by them as a weapon to batter Labour. Does anybody remember the last time the Tories were in power, where they subjected us to 'cuts' during the early 90's which, coincidentally, involved the reduction of troops in Germany, a number of whom were subjected to redundancy, thereby reducing the overall numbers resulting in a cash saving, to be spent on anything other than defence. They didn't do anything to our quarters, they let us live in tips (both MSQs and SLA), the pay wasn't that good and the gear was crap. Strange how they have used those every same areas to batter Labour with eh?

Now I don't support either party as I dislike each with equal amounts of passion having served as a soldier during the periods where each of them were in Government.

Now, we all know that defence costs. It has to, but Governments don't like to spend on defence. None of them ever have, regardless of persuasion. Call me cynical if you wish, but there's a familar ring to the Tories desire to withdraw from Germany. We've been here before with them. Bring the Army back (there are no RAF, bar the odd few bods in BFG), from Germany, resulting in a surplus of soldiers, creating a fresh target for a reduction in defence through redundancy and a few more amalgamations, but never fear...the Euro Army looms on the horizon.

The Tories know that we can never leave the EU as we would suffer in trade terms, much as they 'promise' to hold a referendum on the matter. The sooner that the average Brit wakes up to the fact that we are tied to the EU now for good, the better. The end result will be closer ties all round which will include eventually (certainly in my lifetime) membership of a Euro Army/Defence Force/whetever name they give it, even though some of our Euro 'allies' get cold feet at the mere mention of trouble.

The Tories will promise new kit, as the savings from manpower will allow for the cost, but for those who will be still serving at the time, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Thatcher sent the Army to the Falklands in '82 wearing tin hats, DMS boots and '57 pattern webbing.....and that was the least of the worries as far as kit went. It galls me to listen to the Eton boy and his mates when they jump up and slate Brown and his cronies about his lack of support for the Forces. We don't get any great level of support from Labour, but we didn't get it from the Tories and whats more, we won't get it from them when they get back into power. We are only kidding ourselves if we believe otherwise. The politician is not a soldier and damn few of the current mob have ever been.

Any reduction from Germany is the thin end of the wedge for defence cuts. We've been here before but sadly, we have very short memories in this country. This may sound a bit perverse, but with Labour currently on the backfoot and being forced/humiliated into spending money on gear for the troops, maybe we should capitalise upon that situation and keep them in. It chokes me, but sometimes you're better off with the devil you know.

how very true that we who served in germany are better europeans(donald).i would not have missed it for anything and the thought of no more british presence in germany fills me with sadness.the whole bfg/boar thing was about building bridges and creating a new europe.the fact that we were there along with our allies helped the world through the cold war.for the tories to close this chapter of european history at this moment in time smacks of election bullsh**.if and when you vote at the next general election think long and hard before you put your cross on that bit of paper and remember its not our future but our kids and grandkids future were voting for.graham.

It is interesting to note in that Guardian article that the Tory guy reckons that former Eastern block countries should take over our role. I wonder how the Germans would react to having Poles etc based in their country?

Perhaps I am reading it wrongly and he is suggesting they take over our role but from within their own countries.

If it does happen then it is a sad day.

Cue "Tommy" poem.

Politicians = pigs in a trough.

It used to be said that the Forces always did better under Labour - I'm not so sure about that these days. Perhaps "better" is a relative term!

Remember the days of the Thatcherite "Moratorium" in the '80s. We were pushing armoured vehicles from Bty garages to the Workshops because of fuel and track mileage shortages. The end result was as one might expect - even worse serviceability!

Politics aside, and I only say that because I am not conversant in all the different gradations of the British Army's continued presence in Germany, I think it would be a shame to pull the troops out.

As far as I am concerned, it was a mistake when Canada pulled all our troops out of Germany (moving them all down to Lahr was too, but that's a different thread altogether!! :-) ).

Certainly various NATO armies were there, first off, to keep a lid on any resurgence of Nazism and secondly to keep the USSR at bay during the Cold War. Once the Cold War was over I suppose it could be argued there was no more reason to have foreign troops in Germany.

There was a -- brief -- -period there when it appeared Russia was ceasing to be any sort of threat. I'm not so sure now, what with the rise in Russian nationalism, Putin, etc. I don't think it's the same sort of threat the USSR and Communism posed during the 50's-70's, or even at the same level, but I think Russia bears watching and I think there does need to be a presence in Germany (i.e. the most eastern of the Western countries in Europe before one gets into Czech Republic, Poland, et al) in the event Russian decides to...oh, I don't know...expand or flex their muscle or what-have-you.

I definitely also think, as has been mentioned, that the British, Belgian and French presence in what was then West Germany contributed not insignificantly to the whole idea, and realization, of EU and certainly having us Canadians and, yes (sigh) the Americans, there aided in your Average German Civilian gaining a more....hmmm....cosmopolitan, broader view of the world, beyond "German" and beyond even "European". Certainly it broadened our (i.e Canadians) world view....for the most part, anyway.

I don't think that we are needed in Germany anymore. If the Sov's were still a threat, we'd have been moved up to Poland by now I would imagine. The reason that the Brits are still in Germany is that there isn't anywhere in the UK to house them. Once the Tories get in, I'm convinced (purely on their previous conduct), that they will move us back to the UK and then commit to cull. Their argument will be that we don't need so many tanks, etc, when the global situation no longer appears to require heavy armour. Whether that has any ring of truth about it remains to be seen. The Sov's have enough gas to threaten us with and they'll switch off the pipelines to western europe when they believe that it will advantage them, especially under the individual how now pulls the strings in Moscow. Why is there such a rush in this country for a future nuclear power source now? The British Government knows what the future may hold and needs to head any future Russian fuel threat off at the pass and they'll need to get as many reactors up and running before our own gas source depletes in its entirety.

All of this blaming America for Iraq and Aghanistan (whether true or not) isn't going to do us any favours either. The Tories know that NATO will end and are now (whether they admit it or not) prepared to allow us to enter the Euro-Army as a form of mutual defence. Once that happens America (and rightfully so) will pull the plug on us. It wouldn't appeal to the average American voter, irrespective of party, to spend US dollars on a country which has turned its back on them. The Spams may have been pulling the wool over our eyes for decades, but that aside, they've always done right by us (maybe not behind closed doors though). Once we've lost their support, I doubt that any Euro Army will be in a position to counter any Russian threat, as we can't agree on bugger all and this country's leaders of recent, have shown themselves to be nothing but a shower of duplicitous, dodgy, sneaky, lying b*stards, who'd sell their granny for a vote. Just look at Germany's reaction to Gordon Brown's plans for ecomonic recovery and note how that little frog Sarkozy didn't hang about with Gordon for too long after Merkel spelt it out for him. Thank God that Blair didn't get the Euro leadership.

I'm not sure if the Germans are as 'Euro' as we may be led to believe. It's dog eat dog now and they certainly aren't that chuffed with the EU. Us Brits get fed on a diet of sh*t about how bad the EU is, but we fail to appreciate that we need it for trade as without trade, this set of Islands won't survive. We are being bled by immigration but that's another story and one that the Germans have plenty of experience in. Not everyone was happy about the wall coming down and the amount of Turkish immgrants that the Germans couldn't turn away in the '70s for fear of being branded fascist (bit like the UK today) wasn't palatable to many. Whether we are for or against the EU here in the UK, the one thing which is never publicised is that European union was the brain child of our very own Sir Winston Churchill, just after WW2, where he believed that it would be the only way to prevent a 3rd world war and that at the time, it would help repair the destroyed economies of thos countries involved. That's something that The Sun (the newspaper which Supports Our Boys) never tells you.

I'm sure that things will get a bit interesting in the future and towards the end of my lifetime, but I'm also sure that the Tories are not much better than the current incumbants and that in our desperation not to give Labour a lifeline which would turn this country into a dictatorship as they'd be drunk on the power, we may be inviting in the devil whom we don't know. We're sort of up sh*t creek without a paddle arent we?

We're sort of up sh*t creek without a paddle arent we?

Yes Rocky!

rocky,we have to hope that our kids and grandkids make a better shape of things than our generation did.graham.

Get yoiur paddles here

https://2img.net/h/i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/mypicsxyz/ShitCreek.jpg

Gordon. wrote:

Get yoiur paddles here

https://2img.net/h/i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/mypicsxyz/ShitCreek.jpg

LMAO

Paul.

Hahaha! Brilliant! I wouldn't advertise them too widely though...the Tories might pick up on it and accuse Labour of stockpiling kit that the troops need!

you can get anything online.

I'd say those paddles should go well with the ski's our boys in the desert got!
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Don

Rocky raises some interesting and provocative points and certainly ones that bear considering.

Speaking as someone who lives on the other side of the Great Pond I have to say he is spot on when it comes to the level of American interest should a Euro-army emerge. As it is, Middle America had little to no interest in Europe anyway, even back in the 70's and 80's when the Americans maintained huge bases down around Frankfurt and south. Their only exposure to the American Army (USAF too) presence in West Germany was when Elvis Presley was stationed there in the 60's!

Sadly, your Average Canadian had about the same degree of awareness and interest. Most had no idea we were even over there!

I have no doubt one of the considerations for keeping British troops in Germany is the lack of room back home for them, their families, all the equipment, supplies, etc. If they ever were repatriated I have no doubt, as Rocky suggested, there'd be a huge cut-back/cull of all things military.

£30Bn will affect a lot of people's livelihoods. I would imagine that a substantial amount of that cost would involve serving personnel in Germany. It's not just the serving personnel though, it's their families, schooling, Civil Service pax, and lots of other stuff. I appreciate that there are other public service areas who need the money, the NHS for example, but there's going to be one hell of a shock travelling through the Forces who will be voting Tory this coming election just so as to get Labour out. They will feel very cheated, but as I said earlier, we have very short memories in this country. If you read the readers comments in the article below (OK it's the Sun), then you will see one lad who remembers how the Tories treated us in the '80s (anybody else remember track mileage and the Indian ammo saga?). The bloke who posts below him is an ideal example of someone with his head stuck firmly up his own arse. His dislike of all things Labour clouds his judgement.

It will be interesting to see what would hapen if the Argies had another go at the Falklands, especially if we have no carriers to take another Task Force down. Either these politicians lack foresight or they truly have got a grip on the future. What would happen if, after the 'special relationship' is dissolved in the years to come and we are left with an energy crisis being manipulated by Putin (who is also quite happy to provide Iran with the science they currently seek), Russia decides that they are a in a position to flex it a bit. I would imagine that the US 'defence shield' that Russia got so upset about will have headed back to the States alongwith its owners. By that time we'll have little or no nuclear capability, no fleet to talk of and no air superiority fighters. As a compromise however, we might start getting our ammunition from Mumbai again. Never mind the quality missus, feel the width.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/2639678/Tories-plan-30bn-defence-cuts.html

Indeed, Rocky. Look back at what I said about the Thatcher "Moratorium" a few days ago.

when i was a young soldier [a few years ago now]i did not really pay much attention as to who was in government,but looking back i think every government has to take responsability,for imposing restrictions on the armed forces,in the late 60,s not long after the change from centurions to chieftans,gov cutbacks were so severe that the power packs[engines]runing hrs were so limited tank transporters were needed to move tanks from fallingbostle to hone ranges. in the 70s when in topcliff,we could not send a vehicle on any detail without first checking with other units in the area if they had any jobs that would save fuel by not doubling up,we also had trouble in the 70s with sub standard ammo,and the they trid to do away with brigades and replace them with field forces,thank god that idea never worked.i left the army in the 80s but it seems nothing much has changed,my late mothers old saying has come true, THE LONATICKS ARE RUNNING THE ASSYLUM.