RMP Werl as it is today.

Hi all. Having remained in Germany after leaving the Army in 1989, I've always been interested in what has happened to the old camps that at the time seemed to be everywhere. I was part of 26 Eng Regt in Iserlohn.
Today I drove through Werl and distinctly remembered a short visit to the RMP camp...no I wasn't in trouble. I took a couple of photo's of the main gate as it is today. I'd liked to have gone in but the gate is chained up. I had more luck next door at the Black Watch camp , because the gates were open. I went in and photographed the Med centre on the R/H side as you go in the camp gates. It really is sad to see the advanced state of dereliction.
If anyone is interested in seeing the photo's say so and I'll post them.

Hi Dave
Yep we want to see em

Hi Brian.
Ok I'll just have to fathom out how to post them. I'll get right onto it.

Dave

Hi, again, Brian , is there no way of easily uploading photo's. My laptop throws a loopy just trying to register with the image uploading site.
Dave

Hi Dave, I was one of the last RMP to leave Werl. My Son still lives in Werl and when we go back, I make a point to have a look at the camp. It's depressing too say the least. I remember it as having tidy grass areasand well looked after other areas. When we finally left, the place had to be tidy and clean. What a wasted effort that was.

That's typical Army logic from away back then.I too remember it being immaculate, I recall driving from Iserlohn to Werl driving up the hill on the last "K" before camp, dreading the reception which was invariably given by the RMP's. At the time it was a nightmare but looking back ,now,it was a fantastic time.

I see you served in Düsseldorf, now that's a coincidence, I live in Hubbelrath, Düsseldorf a stones throw from the old Camp.

If you go into www.ruhrmemories.ca click on Fort Victoria there are pictures from 2001 and 2005 mixed up with lots from 4 Fd Sqn RCE on exercise and showing off their cars.

Tony, Just visited that site. Brought back a lot of memories,especially the slide show on Werl barracks.

Hello Dave, Yes I was in Dusseldorf 1981-1984,I was at Caernavon Barracks. We had an MQ just off the Kalkumer Strasse in the Nienberger Strasse. They were happy days.

So sad to see the barracks in Werl in such a state.

I served there with the Black Watch and Royal Scots between 1983 - 1987.

Best place in Germany for me and i went back just after it closing.

I even got recognised by a few of the shopkeepers after being away for a number of years.

I was asked if the British were coming back. Unfortunately not i replied. Apparently we were sorely missed.

Yes you're right it really is so sad to see the place in such disrepair. I don't know why they don't just demolish the buildings.
I was in Iserlohn during the time that you were there, so I was on camp at the same time as you were there, it's a small world. I had a great time there too.

DaveYoung wrote:

I don't know why they don't just demolish the buildings.

Unfortunately it isn't that easy. Military installations, regardless whether they are being used by foreign or by domestic forces on German soil, are the property of the "Bundesvermögensamt" (roughly translates to: German authority for federal assets).

As soon as the installations are no longer in use, they have to be handed over to the "Amt" by the previous user. And as the word "Amt" implies, it is run by "Beamten" (functionaries) ... and the stereotype German functionary is as flexible as a brick. So it often takes the "Amt" years, sometimes even decades, to decide what to do with them.

During my time in Karlsruhe (1986 - 90), serving the Bundeswehr, I was stationed in the lovely "Dragonerkaserne". Barracks built in 1888 for the 1st Garde de Corps Dragoons of the Prince Elector, Principality of Baden.

In 1990 the units stationed in Dragonerkaserne were dissolved, the barracks returned to the "Amt". They remained emty for years, were then used as a home for asylum-seekers (which didn't improve the state they were in when handed over by the troops).

As far as I know the "Amt" still hasn't decided yet what to do with Dragonerkaserne as the national German laws regarding the preservatin of historical sites, buildings and the national heritage collide with the shameless capitalistic interests of those wanting to convert it into cash.

It makes my heart bleed when I recall my memories regarding the Dragonerkaserne. It was particularly interestimg to search the old buildings / stables for "graffiti" carved into wood and stone by soldiers serving there in the late 19th and early 20th century. Generations of soldiers kept the barracks in good shape, it went unharmed through two big wars ... and the German functionary tuns it into ruins by neglecting it.

Nobby wrote:

So sad to see the barracks in Werl in such a state.

I served there with the Black Watch and Royal Scots between 1983 - 1987.

Best place in Germany for me and i went back just after it closing.

I even got recognised by a few of the shopkeepers after being away for a number of years.

I was asked if the British were coming back. Unfortunately not i replied. Apparently we were sorely missed.

Hi Nobby,

On my return trips to Dielinghofen and Lahr I have often been told that the Canadians are missed and would like to see them back. It was good days and especialy in the 60's for me when we were part of BOAR. I've always thought it was far better up North than down South. After leaving the BOAR the Cdn Bde was just a joke for the Yanks down south.

I agree with everyone else regarding the state so many of the old camps and Kasernes have fallen to and Guest is quite correct...German bureaucracy is a nightmare at the best of times.

An example: When I returned to Soest in 1973 I knew I needed a work visa and applied to the German Consulate in Edmonton (Alberta's provincial capital). I forget now how long I waited for it but do recall getting frustrated waiting (I was eager to return, not having wanted to leave to begin with) and decided to just go to Germany anyway, hoping that would speed things up.

I had a job waiting, courtesy of a German friend of my dad's who grew up in Soest (but lived in Hemer) but of course was unable to start work without my work visa. Fair enough.

During the 3 months I waited, sleeping on the front room sofa of a German friend of mine's family, I came face-to-face with the Kafkaesque labyrinth of German bureaucratic thinking. I was unable to get my work permit without a residence permit, in order to find my own place to live in I needed a residence permit. However, I was unable to get a residence permit without a work permit! My dad's friend intervened after getting a letter from my mom imploring him to help 'this poor kid out' (me) and he, apparently, had some good contacts within the local Amt and, suddenly, all my paperwork fell into place!

Returning to the state of the camps and Kasernes--sadly, this is the state of affairs all over Germany. The Kaserne in Lahr, which housed not only the barracks but also the Canadian high school, CANEX, the youth club and more, is in dreadful shape. A few buildings, apparently, are in use but overall the site has been allowed to go derelict. I've seen photos of the youth club as it now is and it's tragic.

In it's heyday it was quite the place. A large complex with murals, some quite good, done by the kids. The murals are still there but covered in graffiti, flaking, moulding, and disintegrating. Windows broken, moisture seeping in, everything rotting away.

I've also seen pics of the camps at Werl as well and the overgrown property, buildings standing derelict, etc. Very sad.

long time since i saw the name BVA ,i use to play football for the BVA in soest .great bunch of lads and the social side of the team was really good as the only englander i had a ball...graham..

Hardrations wrote:

Hi Nobby,

On my return trips to Dielinghofen and Lahr I have often been told that the Canadians are missed and would like to see them back. It was good days and especialy in the 60's for me when we were part of BOAR. I've always thought it was far better up North than down South. After leaving the BOAR the Cdn Bde was just a joke for the Yanks down south.

Hi Hardrations
Do you know what the reasoning was behind moving the Cdn Bde out of 1 (BR) Corps and subordinating them to the Yanks?

It's something that's always puzzled me.

Cheers
Mike

As far as I could understand it. The RCAF had been booted out of France by King Charlie De Gaulle to Lahr. Our King Pierre Trudeau the gutless, decided that Canadians should all be in one place for economic reasons and close to the RCAF for ground support. Up until then I believe the Dutch Air-force did our Air to Ground support role. The Bde. was downsized by 1 Btn of Infantry and other major units were down sized. The British so I heard offered an air base in the BOAR area, but King Pierre didn't really like the Canadians being under BOAR control. I found out when posted back to Germany in 71 to HQ & Sigs 4 CMBG that technically we were still part of BOAR. So I was told by an Int. Sgt. in Bde. HQ's. Up north we were considered a Light Division by the Brits and a good one. Down south we were considered a joke by the Yanks. Mind you one advantage being in Lahr, was that if the balloon went up, we were close to the Swiss border. That comment was made by a Lt. Col. in the Cdn Army, I happened to over hear.I think our motto was, " We attack at dawn. That way the rest of the day won't be wasted". It was a sad state of affairs sending us down south. Up north we served a worth while role as a front line unit. Down south I believe our role was to work in reserve with the reserve forces ( Third line, age 45 to 50 ) of the German Army.

We were in Lahr to keep an eye on the Swiss Navy,it worked they never gave us a bit of trouble in the seven years I was there.

In the old brigade area we were part of something useful,and it felt like home.

Hi Hardrations and TonyE

Fort Beausejour, Iserlohn.

Hm,............It seems you Canadians really enjoyed being up north.
I was based in Iserlohn in what was renamed by the British 3rd Arm'd Div as Corunna Barracks.
I was in 5 Fld Sqn Royal Engineers , 26 Engineers Regiment.

I participated in a small anniversary parade in the early 80's commemorating us taking over the barracks from the Canadians.

In Canadian days the barracks were called Fort Beausejour.

On several occasions I was attached to the Canadians in Lahr as we had several construction projects in that area. We never had any problems and fun was had by all.

The bond between us and the Canadian Engineers was so good that when we deployed to the Falkland islands as part of Op Corporate we took a Canadian officer with us, J.P. Coutourier was his name and he was one of "the boys". He drove a Saab turbo but, being Canadian, just couldn't, quite, get used to the lack of speed restrictions on German Autobahns, subsequently writing the car off in a 100 mile an hour crash. J.P. didn't get a scratch.

Just as a small finishing note in WW2 my family lost one member, 6 weeks after D day. John was a Private soldier in the Lincoln and Welland Regiment , from Canada.

By the way Hardrations, "our" Germany was called BAOR and not BOAR......that's a hairy and very ugly wild pig.....but grand fun to hunt. Having said that there was an abundance of the sort down town......but grand funt to hunt.

Regards.

Dave

Mly apologies Dave. BAOR it is.

Just a reminder of a link I put up in 2007 of a satellite image of Vitoria barracks

http://tinyurl.com/29mam8

DaveYoung wrote:

Hi Hardrations and TonyE

Fort Beausejour, Iserlohn.

Hm,............It seems you Canadians really enjoyed being up north.
I was based in Iserlohn in what was renamed by the British 3rd Arm'd Div as Corunna Barracks.
I was in 5 Fld Sqn Royal Engineers , 26 Engineers Regiment.

I participated in a small anniversary parade in the early 80's commemorating us taking over the barracks from the Canadians.

In Canadian days the barracks were called Fort Beausejour.

On several occasions I was attached to the Canadians in Lahr as we had several construction projects in that area. We never had any problems and fun was had by all.

The bond between us and the Canadian Engineers was so good that when we deployed to the Falkland islands as part of Op Corporate we took a Canadian officer with us, J.P. Coutourier was his name and he was one of "the boys". He drove a Saab turbo but, being Canadian, just couldn't, quite, get used to the lack of speed restrictions on German Autobahns, subsequently writing the car off in a 100 mile an hour crash. J.P. didn't get a scratch.

Just as a small finishing note in WW2 my family lost one member, 6 weeks after D day. John was a Private soldier in the Lincoln and Welland Regiment , from Canada.

By the way Hardrations, "our" Germany was called BAOR and not BOAR......that's a hairy and very ugly wild pig.....but grand fun to hunt. Having said that there was an abundance of the sort down town......but grand funt to hunt.

Regards.

Dave

Hi Dave
Same place Same time...posted into 30 (Dirty Thirty) Fd Sqn from Willich Nov 77 leaving for Ripon Nov 79...3 Armd Div Engr Regt less 25 Fd Sqn went to NI 30 Fd Sqn to Portadown...did you go to the Knicker Factory Lurgan with 5 Fd Sqn then had a detachment to CETC Hameln in 79..came back to Iserlohn as a civvy 83 to 87 then returned Dec 01 and still here living in Sümmern have some local newspaper cuttings that we be added to the blog soon
Cheers
Steve
http://britisharmyiniserlohn.blogspot.com/

Hi Steve.
I just checked your blog....WELL DONE....you must've put years of research into it. I makes really good reading.

I myself was in 5 Sqn from autumn 1980 to 1987. I arrived during NATO EX "Crusader 80" but wasn't sent out into the field.

No, I missed the 5 Sqn tour of NI because I spoke fluent German. I was allowed to stay in BFG as part of the rear party. One of 1 troops guys killed himself on tour by shooting himself in the head with a Browning because his girlfriend split up with him. He was our barman. I can remember his face, well, but not his name.
We had some "severe" and memorable parties up in the attic in the squadron bar.

You live in Summern, we used to have to patrol the building site whilst the new quarters were being built. At the time they were first class.

There were also shooting ranges at Summern, I suppose they're gone now too.

We had pads living in quarters as far away as Hamm.

I have loads of photo's taken during the early 80's on camp and on scheme.

There still are quite few ex squaddies living in and around Iserlohn. I loved it there.

Ok Steve, keep up the good work.

Hardrations

Read your forthright comments on the move south of 4CMBG with interest.

You are correct, when part of NORTHAG, the Canadian Brigade was regarded as a light Division with a key operational role as the link between 1 (British Corps) and neighbouring US equivalent. When researching my contribution on the Canadian Brigade to be found elsewhere on this site I found a detailed academic paper which outlines in detail the effects on the operational effectiveness and morale of the move south which you eloquently summarise

One point though, the RCAF NATO contribution was always based on reinforcing the American Air Force and I believe Lahr was always their permanent base. Conversely the Canadian Government did consider a number of deployment options for the Army across Germany in 1951 before deciding on the northern role as the independent (not UK reinforcement) Canadian contribution to NATO

Lahr became a Canadian Base some time in the mid sixties when King Charlie de Gaule kicked NATO HQ's and troops out of France. We had to send troops from the Soest area to assist in the move. We were in Marvel (hope that's correct spelling). Baden was the air base for the fighters and an infantry battalion. The remainder HQ of the Army and Air Force were in the Lahr at the Kaserne and Lahr airbase. I was lucky to be posted to the Kaserne with HQ's & Sigs ( I was still Sigs) 4CMBG at the Kaserne. All the people who had never been posted up north never knew what they were missing.