Another Canadian

jim wrote:

Hmm, maybe it was the Canadians taking over from us then Steve,

I wish my Dad was alive, I'd love to question him about those times. My mum is very wooly about dates and places now.

oh yes, I see you are right, Full Colonel now.

Hi Jim, what was your father's unit and approx dates, regards Steve

Hmmm, Dad was a Lancashire Fusilier Steve, and I'd say '54 - '56 maybe? Maybe '53 I know I started school there.

jim wrote:

Hmmm, Dad was a Lancashire Fusilier Steve, and I'd say '54 - '56 maybe? Maybe '53 I know I started school there.

Aldershot Barracks Iserlohn from Nov 53 taking over from 1 Bn Queens Royal (West Surrey) Regiment (Micheal Caine's former unit) to Nov 56 then to York the Canadians did not arrive until later but not to Aldershot Barracks this went back to the Luftwaffe in 1968
If not already found go to
http://www.lancs-fusiliers.co.uk/gallerynew/Iserlohn/iserlohn.htm
Great bunch spoke to webmaster on the phone and gave permission to use images
Cheers
Steve
http://britisharmyiniserlohn.blogspot.com/

jim wrote:

oh yes, I see you are right, Full Colonel now.

Except that I got the spelling wrong!

Found another two Canadians in Bebington (Wirral) cemetery today.

The various barracks, excluding those in Deilinghofen, in and around Hemer/Iserlohn bounced back and forth between British and Canadians.

While the barracks in Iserlohn, the 3-storey ones, were often (if not all) originally German, then British postwar, they were held by Canadians for over 20-25 years, up to 1970/71 (let's toss in the ones up in Soest too, although the ones out by Bad Sassendorf, York and oh geez...the other one LOL, were always Canadian up to 1971).

After the Canadian pull-out and move to the Black Forest Region in 70-71, these barracks -- as mentioned elsewhere -- were passed off to the British as were the former Canadian Married Quarters and held by British forces until the British left in 1993 (?), at which time the barracks were either returned to the Bundeswehr or converted to civilian use (the ones in Deilinghofen, for instance).

If I am not mistaken, the two camps in Deilinghofen, the two camps in Werl, and the two camps in Soest/Bad Sassendorf -- all single storey white barracks -- were specifically built for Canadians. I don't believe the Canadians 'inherited' them from anybody. Certainly the style of them are all circa 1950s.

Also as mentioned elsewhere, the camps in Werl have been allowed to fall into dereliction. The camps in Deilinghofen have been converted to either light industrial use or used as temporary housing for refugees. The camps in Soest/Bad Sassendorf I am not as sure about...I believe they are now used for light industrial and IT type stuff...techie computer companies.

Not sure why the Werl camps were allowed to fall into ruin...damn shame.

In discussions I've been having over on Flikr with a woman in the Hemer area, there does appear to be a mindset amongst the current generation of Germans (i.e. those born after the Canadians left and often after the British left as well) that NATO forces -- Canadians and British and to a certain degree Belgique -- were "occupation forces" and so any artifacts relating to that period, like the former barracks and even Married Quarters, are just not valued whatsoever. In fact, allowing these edifices of the "occupation" to fall into disrepair and eventually be bulldozed is seen as just fine and fitting!

stephen you would do well to remind your friend [and todays generation of germans ] who it was that first built and occupied the numerous barracks accross thier country,and it is a long time since the british or canadians have been considered forces of occupation, and if as you say they dont value the housing that was left behind then that is thier loss.

Steve, thanks for that Link, I semi remember the school and a couple of faces look vaguely familiar. Thank you very much mate.

Stephen Lock wrote:

In discussions I've been having over on Flikr with a woman in the Hemer area, there does appear to be a mindset amongst the current generation of Germans (i.e. those born after the Canadians left and often after the British left as well) that NATO forces -- Canadians and British and to a certain degree Belgique -- were "occupation forces" and so any artifacts relating to that period, like the former barracks and even Married Quarters, are just not valued whatsoever. In fact, allowing these edifices of the "occupation" to fall into disrepair and eventually be bulldozed is seen as just fine and fitting!

Just a note to above. The couple who know own the former Protestant Chapel in Fort Prince of Wales in Deilinghofen which has been turned into a sheet metal shop and living quarters. Told me on my last visit in 2007 that they would like to have pictures from past years of Fort P of W's to post up in the building. He's German his wife is Irish. They are very nice about recieving former soldiers for a look around.

Incidentaly the Christning font is now in the Youth Center in Deilinghofen. So there are some who care. Interesting Steph that you've heard of this occupation idea on the part of the young. But then when I visit it, it's with folks I knew from my tour in 60's. They have a different version of events . I would think that for the young to have the idea we were occupying forces, that their parents lived no where near Canadians/British or had any social contact with them and still held onto some old ideas, which they passed onto their children.

The term "occupation forces" finished in May 1946 when the Canadians went home the return in 1951 was NATO under command BAOR...excellent report up to 1958...the pdf download takes a while
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/ahqr-rqga/AHQ_89.pdf
Cheers
Steve

In the same year the;
German firm of Linde at Dusseldorf built hookey-rinks at each
of the four camp sites to Canadian specifications. No major
technioal difficulties were encountered,(?1)

Ahh they had their priotities right on.

Hookey rinks, not my spelling. Must have been an idle clerk..........

Hardrations wrote:

In the same year the;
German firm of Linde at Dusseldorf built hookey-rinks at each
of the four camp sites to Canadian specifications. No major
technioal difficulties were encountered,(?1)

Ahh they had their priotities right on.

Hookey rinks, not my spelling. Must have been an idle clerk..........

You must admit a great document wish the British had recorded the history in the same way

steve wrote:

Hardrations wrote:

In the same year the;
German firm of Linde at Dusseldorf built hookey-rinks at each
of the four camp sites to Canadian specifications. No major
technioal difficulties were encountered,(?1)

Ahh they had their priotities right on.

Hookey rinks, not my spelling. Must have been an idle clerk..........

You must admit a great document wish the British had recorded the history in the same way

I agree. Canadian Army has always been good at documentation/paper work. Still I guess spell check wasn't around then.

Haven't had a chance to be on-line much lately, but got here in time to pass on some info re: the Canadian barracks in the Soest-Werl-Hemer-Iserlohn area as there have always been questions about the 'where, when and whys'.

In 1953 the Canadian government received DM 2 million from the British as 'seed money' to build what was originally known as "Camp C4 Soest Germany", but was actually eight camps spread over a 400 square mile area east of the Ruhr industrial area. (Unlike the British, Canada was not an occupation force and therefore could not bill the Germans for cost of accommodation. Since BAOR was anxious to regain use of the Barracks in Hannover occupied by the 27th CIB, they decided to foot the initial bills. Pass that on to the "occupation thinkers".)

One theory of why the camps were so spread out was to increase survivability in case of nuclear attack. This seems to square with the fact that all barracks were single story to eliminate the danger of multi-floor buildings falling down. Also the fact that, where practicable, camps were built on reverse slopes. Another plausable reason was to "spread the wealth" around as many towns as possible as Germany struggled to regain her economic feet just eight years after the war.

The powers that be decided each camp would bear the name of a famous fort from Canadian history:
Forts Prince of Wales and MacLeod in Hemer; Forts Chambly, York, and Henry in Soest; Forts St. Louis, Anne and Victoria in Werl. Later on two ex-German barracks in Iserlohn were taken over from the British and named Forts Beausejeour and Qu'appelle.

And so they remained until 1971.

That is a good piece of information recce.

I thought we documented things quite well, it's just difficult to find all the various unit diary's and stuff. Certainly at HQ 1(BR) Corps the diary made interesting reading.

I've put some more photo's on my photo bucket page https://s707.photobucket.com/albums/ww73/mercurypics/

Two Canadians but also a Pioneer Corps VC with a plaque on the grave which has something to do with Canada as far as I can tell. Anyone know what the story is?

Nice to find my first VC and I never even knew the cemetery was there never mind the graves. It was a churchyard cemetery but the church is no longer there. Holy Trinity Hoylake (of open golf fame) Wirral.

Edit to say I found this. I don't understand why he has a Pioneer Corps stone when he won the VC with his first unit?

O'NEILL, * John. (reg No. 946).
Sergeant. 2nd Battalion. Prince of Wales Leinster Regiment.
London Gazetted on 26th December 1918.
Born on 11th February 1897 at Airdrie, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
Died on 16th October 1942 at Hoylake, Cheshire.
Memorial on grave at the Holy Trinity Churchyard, Hoylake, Cheshire.
Digest of Citation reads:
For most conspicuous bravery on 14th October 1918, near Moorseele, Belgium, when his company's advance was checked by two enemy machine-guns and a field battery that was firing over open sights. Leading a charge consisting of himself and 11 men against the battery, they captured four field guns, two machine guns and took 16 prisoners. On the 20th October 1918 Sergeant O'Neill and one other man charged an enemy machine-gun position, routing approximately 100 of the enemy and causing many casualties. Throughout these operations he showed the most outstanding courage and powers of leadership.
* or O'NIELL.
Additional information:. Lieutenant John O'Neill also held a Military Medal (M M), and the Médaille Militaire of France. During the Second World War he served in the Pioneer Corps.

This site has info on VC's teabag.

dandc wrote:

stephen you would do well to remind your friend [and todays generation of germans ] who it was that first built and occupied the numerous barracks accross thier country,and it is a long time since the british or canadians have been considered forces of occupation, and if as you say they dont value the housing that was left behind then that is thier loss.

Yes, I have pointed that out and the distinction wasn't lost on her, to her credit.

As for viewing American/Canadian/British forces as "occupation"....I, very nicely, pointed out to her that these armies were, in fact, part of NATO (as was the Federal German Republic) stationed in Germany because Germany, geographically, was seen as strategic in keeping the Russian Communist hordes behind their Iron Curtain and OUT of Western Europe.

But of course, as the years pass, new generations always exert their version of revisionist history on things.

As far as I was concerned, our presence in what was then West Germany from 1953-1980s (both in NRW and, later, down in the Schwarzwald)had very little to do with WWII, Hitler or the Third Reich, although I suppose originally that may have been so, but by 1953 the war had been over for some time. Plus 'armies of occupation' tend not to bring their families along....we weren't there as a tool of oppression but as a bulwark against it in the form of Soviet Communism.

Hardrations wrote:

Just a note to above. The couple who know own the former Protestant Chapel in Fort Prince of Wales in Deilinghofen which has been turned into a sheet metal shop and living quarters. Told me on my last visit in 2007 that they would like to have pictures from past years of Fort P of W's to post up in the building. He's German his wife is Irish. They are very nice about recieving former soldiers for a look around.

I am aware, through you probably, of the former Protestant Chapel turned into living quarters and a studio/sheet metal shop. That's great.

Hardrations wrote:

Incidentaly the Christning font is now in the Youth Center in Deilinghofen. So there are some who care.

Hmmmm....an interesting example of recycling! What is the font used for now, then? Seems a rather odd location to install a former baptismal font, but better there than having it smashed up for paving stones!

Hardrations wrote:

Interesting Steph that you've heard of this occupation idea on the part of the young. But then when I visit it, it's with folks I knew from my tour in 60's. They have a different version of events . I would think that for the young to have the idea we were occupying forces, that their parents lived no where near Canadians/British or had any social contact with them and still held onto some old ideas, which they passed onto their children.

Yes, I would tend to agree.

When I returned to Soest in 1973 and worked construction it was even then quite clear, in the reactions to me, who had socialized or been around or other wise benefitted from Canadians and who had no contact whatsoever.

The latter tended to view me -- and by extension -- all Canadians I suppose and one can extrapolate, the British, with some suspicion.

The woman I correspond with via Flikr is pretty cool, actually, and does have some concept of Canadian/British time but overlaying that (or perhaps underlying it) is this idea of "occupation". I don't think she sees it that way, I think she was relaying a pervasive attitude she has encountered from her peers.

After all, it's been 30 years since the Canadians left the old Brigade Area and a whole generation has been born, grew up, and started families of their own since then with no exposure to any of us whatsoever so of course "we" are ancient history. All they see is evidence of some foreign army on their territory so naturally it was about "occupation."

recce83 -- excellent thumbnail history there re the Canadian camps. What a deal....all those camps, and all the infrastructure that goes with them, for DM 2Million??? Couldn't..and wouldn't...be done for that today!

I hadn't thought about the reason for single storey buildings being anything to do with nuclear attack, but that does make sense.

The 'spreading of the wealth' amongst various civilian towns etc. Yes...I knew that part. Army families are very familiar with how we improve local economies and are not appreciated until after we leave! LOL

Stephen, I think your last point is very valid. I served in Werl for some 6 years in total. I married a local Girl from Wickede (Ruhr). My Son still lives in Werl and also married a local from Werl. During my time there my Daughter attended a local German school and we made many friends. I personally have not found any anomosity towards the so called,"Occupation Forces". My Wife also has relatives in Canada, through marriage to Canadians who served in Werl. As you say, NOT appreciated until we leave. I go back there twice a year and meet up with other former members of Forces stationed there, Americans, Belgiums and Brits, I have always found the utmost courtesy from the Indigenous Germans.

I think, in many ways, we were appreciated by those locals who directly benefitted from our being there....landlords and landladies, many of whom ended up being friends as well.

The next rung up (or would that be down) might be local businesses, shops, certainly gasthofs and discos and such, that enjoyed a strong patronage from us. I know for a fact after the Canadians pulled out, many such businesses had a tough go of it! They certainly missed us after we left....

The infusion of hard cold cash the Canadians, Belgians, and later the British made into the local economies of Hemer, Iserlohn, Deilinghofen, Werl, Soest and Unna just with shopping and renting and such would have been huge over the years but I know the attitude of some of the shops was....hmmm....less than warm sometimes. Not always. Some were very helpful and very friendly towards us, but some were just a**h*les. Of course, the same thing would be the case in garrison towns you lot were stationed in like Hamelin, Minden, Osnabruck, etc.

What brought it home to me was when I went back in 1973 to work and it quickly became readily apparent my "status" had changed. At best, I was just 'that Canadian who came back' and at worst just another gastarbeiter, a foreign worker.

The family I rented from were very nice and very accommodating but, despite their close proximity to the Married Quarters, had had no contact with Canadian families at all. It was evident in how they responded to me....not unfriendly, not strange, just...I dunno....not sure what to make of me or something. Okay, so that's not an unusual response for most people ehehehehehe

I also noticed a decided difference in the response towards British as compared to the response towards Canadians, especially out in the night spots. We, it seemed to me, were actively sought out and frequently engaged in conversation. Not so much with the British, but then part of that could have been that most of the Brits I hung out with were squaddies and...well....you know those Army boys!!! Best to stay clear of them, dontcha know!!! :-)

"Indigenous Germans" LOL....given the ebb and flow of ancient European tribes, is there any such thing as an Indigenous anything in Europe (Laplanders being an exception!) let alone Germany??

I have a friend who married a local girl in Detmold, when they go back he says how the local businesses have never really recovered from the troops leaving.

jim wrote:

I have a friend who married a local girl in Detmold, when they go back he says how the local businesses have never really recovered from the troops leaving.

Especially pubs and beer sales no doubt?