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 Why so many Army numbers?

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Phil B
Private
Private


Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2016-10-28

PostSubject: Why so many Army numbers?   28/10/2016, 20:47

Dear Baor,

Just passing on information about my Grandfather Charles William Martin Page in the hope you may have more information about his service in WWI.

He was born in 1898 in Birmingham and by 1917 he was serving as a Private in the Army Service Corps as a Motor Driver. These are the details on my mother's birth certificate, she was Violet Elise Page.
From different sources I have found the following information that relates to him, as below, which shows different Army numbers.
He, however, did not marry my Grandmother but instead married a German girl in 1920 while in Cologne so my mother was born illegitimately. So he was serving in German long after the end of WWI.

From 1918 Absent voters list
13 Alfred Place, Osler Street, Rotton Park Ward. Birmingham - M/279643, M.T, ASC 1st Bn.

From 1919 Absent voters list
13 Alfred Place, Osler Street, Rotton Park Ward, Birmingham - M/279643, M.T ASC.

1920 December 14th Command 585 M.T. Coy. R.A.S.C. at Cologne
Marriage between Charles William Martin Page and Katherine Schnicels Schiley (widow) in Cologne, father to Katherine is Heinrich Schnicels, Postman.

1921 electoral roll
13 Alfred Place, Osler Street, Birmingham - M/18795 L/Cpl., RASC

I know the majority of WWI records were destroyed in WWII but I was wondering if you might have more information about his service in the R.A.S.C. at this time and why he had so many Army numbers?

Any additional information on my Grandfather or where he served would be extremely welcome.

Yours sincerely
Phil B
Sutton Coldfield


Last edited by Phil B on 18/1/2018, 13:45; edited 1 time in total
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Pborn4
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 158
Age : 71
Localisation : Between Hannover and Herford, off all main routes
Cap Badge : Not even a reservist now - have been Pborn3
Places Served : Oswestry 1965, Paderborn to 1971, NE Dist, Munsterlager from 1974, Sennelager (1976 to 2012)
Registration date : 2016-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Why so many Army numbers?   18/1/2018, 09:17

Regtl/Army Numbers  - as always looking for something more specific - came across this "Blog" which may explain to some how the Services (Army) counts soldiers.

Before there were Record and Pay Offices there were Regimental Nominal Rolls, Acquitance Rolls, Medal Rolls, Burial Rolls listing membership, pay, honours and awards, and where the fallen lay.  (and one suspects the Quartermaster had his own Rolls to account for his stores, and the Rum Issue).

Here is the site to while away a few hours (can give no guarantees have yet to try the patience of the operator    What a Face ):

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.de
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Phil B
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Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2016-10-28

PostSubject: Re: Why so many Army numbers?   18/1/2018, 11:48

Pborn4 wrote:
Regtl/Army Numbers  

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.de

Hello Pborn4, thanks for this. I've had a look at this website but there is a specific mention about the A.S.C. and I quote...
   
"Notable exclusions are The Labour Corps and The Army Service Corps. I do not hold data for these corps and neither have I attempted to work out meaning from their baffling service number series."

So if this guy has trouble with these numbers what chance do us mortals stand?
Thanks anyway, cheers cheers  Phil
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Pborn4
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 158
Age : 71
Localisation : Between Hannover and Herford, off all main routes
Cap Badge : Not even a reservist now - have been Pborn3
Places Served : Oswestry 1965, Paderborn to 1971, NE Dist, Munsterlager from 1974, Sennelager (1976 to 2012)
Registration date : 2016-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Why so many Army numbers?   18/1/2018, 13:00

Wonder if the ASC gave its bods Part Nos (before the NATO Stock Nos) added them to a catalogue - the M prefix in the example above (Pte Page) may indeed be trade identifier

Another source: https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Service_Number


GSC (General Service Corps) held attested but unposted personnel who got a number when they went to their career unit. (In modern times I knew an ex RSM who was commissioned but held in the GSC until an Infantry Regt claimed him - he kept his GSC Greatcoat with every button bearing the Royal Coat of Arms)
Labour Corps and Army Service Corps contained both Trained Soldiers (wounded or temporarily incapacitated and relocated from Colour Regts) who kept their identifying number if the stay would be temporary, otherwise with untrained "labour" were given numbers under the Army Order 388 rule. Frequent re-allocation from a Colour Unit to Labour Corps, night be for soldiers who had contracted Malaria - for which there is no cure - but to be relocated away from "Malaria areas"

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Phil B
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Private


Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2016-10-28

PostSubject: Re: Why so many Army numbers?   18/1/2018, 13:43

Pborn4 wrote:

Another source:  https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Service_Number


Hi Pborn4,
I just visited this website and the link to the R.A.S.C. page says "please update your account" , so no luck there.

I don't know if this helps.... on his Medal Roll Card there are two regimental numbers which are M. 279643 and EMT. 43886 and his Medal Roll number is RASC/101.B.167 page 17054.

Thanks again Phil
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Pborn4
WOI
WOI


Number of posts : 158
Age : 71
Localisation : Between Hannover and Herford, off all main routes
Cap Badge : Not even a reservist now - have been Pborn3
Places Served : Oswestry 1965, Paderborn to 1971, NE Dist, Munsterlager from 1974, Sennelager (1976 to 2012)
Registration date : 2016-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Why so many Army numbers?   18/1/2018, 14:54

Let us assume that with his first ASC Unit your G Father was given a service number special to that War time (1918) Unit, M279643. That identified him and would be inscribed on the medals to which he was entitled. (along the rim). Not sure what the number EMT 43886 means but the Medal Roll Number RASC/101.B.167 page 17054 refers to the actual Medal Roll and personal detail passed to the Army Medal Office (to Order and make the entitled War Medals) . These Medal Rolls are bound booklets and are in the National Archive (PRO) Kew, London

Then he was posted to the MT Coy ASC based in the new BAOR and was given an new Regimental Number - It took a while allocating numbers to those who were staying and skipping the people who were discharged to civvie street.

By 1921 Army Order 388 was fully applied and all soldiers were given an Army Number allocated according Corps/Cap Badge - see the list on the arrse.co.uk pages.

Getting away from the personal number Pte/Lcpl Page carried, you will find out more about the structure of his life at RLC Museum (progression ASC > RASC > RCT > RLC)
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-army-service-corps-in-the-first-world-war/
http://www.rlcmuseum.co.uk/

www.orbat.info/history/volume5/518/Original%20BAOR.pdf

or by a personal viisit to RLC MUseum at Deepcut?

http://www.rlcarchive.org/ pay per view unfortunately

OR Take a trip to your local Library and take advice from the Librarian to get historical books on loan under the BDLSS system (http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/atyourdesk/docsupply/productsservices/loan/ )



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Phil B
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Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2016-10-28

PostSubject: Re: Why so many Army numbers?   18/1/2018, 15:55

Pborn4, thanks again for the information and links.
When searching the 'rlcmuseum' site it throws up an "Enlistment Book" listing for Grandfather Charles using the 18795 number. I will contact them with the all the information I have and see if they can help.
Thanks again, Phil
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