Qubec Bks Osnabruck

'Lo Steve,

You're certainly in front of Wikipedia...... Never did trust them too much, anyway! The construction date you surmise could be right, though 16 LAA Regt RA were certainly in residence in 1952 if my hearsay info. is correct. I know the Germans can get a move on but to fill that site in a couple of years must be good even by their standards. I presume it was all built by local labour, and good tradesmen too rather than a labour force of Displaced Persons.....All this when Osnabruck, itself, was in ruins and resources would be stretched...... from personal experience, and being involved in the 1950's with the drawings for an Ordnance Depot at Eggington, which aped detail supplied by War Office, continental standards were superior to anything which was much more basic and acceptable in UK.

Which begs the question that, if it was designed and built post-war, who did it? Not the RE's for sure, the accommodation isn't standard Brit, neither is the construction. Maybe it was planned for the Wehrmacht and events put a hold on construction until after VE day. I'm corresponding with a German architect, an ex-Panzer Engineer. He's not too well at the moment, but he might be able to advise me on relevant wartime requirements when I dare trouble him

I wonder if there is any record in the Rathaus or Stadt Museum ? It's likely the military didn't need written approval, but there must have been some co-ordination to cater for statutory services, drainage etc. A construction date would enable you to discount any units not in the area until Quebec was completed. RE Works might help, so might British Forces' Post Office records. They, if anyone, should know when Quebec Bks. got its name & who was in residence.............

And I never asked........ Why do you want to know ?

David L.

cartav

thank you for the information you provided

to answer your latest question, steve and i have set ourselves a personal challenge of trying to construct an outline order of battle (orbat) and location statement (locstat)a for the british army of the rhine fron ve day (may 1945) till 1949 when the last of the hostilities only units were disbanded. it is a facinating and challenging task as it includes not just the british army but in summer 1945 canadian, polish, belgian and dutch units were involved. in later years the danes and norwegians also made a contribution.

it is a fascinating and challenging task as there is relatively little accurate information readily accesible. we have also found that so called military histories can be either inaccurate or contradictory. through this site i have built up a network of worldwide contacts including access to closed archive material but see my earlier comment even there there are contradictions

currently i am working on the canadians and in particular the canadian army occupation force (caof) which had the responsibility for the coastal area of germany between the two naval bases of emden and wilhelmshaven. for some reason as yet unexplained the town of osnabruck was also included. why? the canadians main supply base was holland and infact they appear not to stationed any combat troops there (you will find a map of the caof area off the history of baor section off the main page)

the story of the baor barrack names is worthy of a separate ph d level study- give me 20 years and i might come up with the definitive answer. so far as the canadians are concerned they did indeed name a number of their permanent bases in summer 1945 with canadian themes which lasted for many years after the canadians departed for home. these range from the obvious maple leaf barracks aurich, their commanders mcnaughton, crerar doubtless there was symmonds barracks but that has yet to be found.

their homeland towns/provinces also feature. caledonia barracks varel is a definite, named by the north nova scotia highlanders, vancouver barracks delmenhorst probably named by the british columbia regiment who were in the area in may 45 is another

then there is quebec barracks. our canadian contributors have robustly pointed out that the proud quebecqois would never have named a barracks after a defeat but the motto of their province and the famous vingt doos regiment is "je me reviens" (i will remember (my french heritage)) it is therefore possible that the name could have originated from a french canadian regiment. my original thoughts were that it was the regiment de la chaudiere who were part of the caof but the regiments war diaries prove they were never in osnabruck

the other two francophone regiments were both part of 2 infantry division, the regiment maisonneuve and fusiliers mont real who were definitely part of the interim canadian occupation force from may to july 45 (the vingt doos part of the canadian 1st division were always based in holland)

you can find the subsequent argument and counter argument elsewhere on this site

watch this spacel

ref the building of the camp, the RHQ, old sgt mess , old med center were original building and the rest were built by the germans. Im racking my brains now about the converstion we had about it with the CO. i will get on the case to one of the civves who use to work there, (eddy windrow)

Hi there,
My daughter was born in the Osnabruck hospital in '98,we'll never forget that city,strange though as we were stationed in Munster at the time !!
I guess it was the 'deal' at the time.
excellent German hospital.
atb
pinky
HUSSAR

Some logic in the belief that construction was in two stages............ I can quite believe that admin blocks were put up first, possibly to control the less permanent units which might have been erected initially for the DP holding camps and any previous WW2. usage.

It's all supposition, but with some infrastructure for these earlier blocks already in place, time on site for the accommodation blocks, etc. would have been reduced. But when the whole camp is considered, the officers' mess, the vehicle park & garages, etc., etc., it's going a bit to put it all together and fill a 37 hectare ( I think!) site in two years.

cartav wrote:

'Lo Steve,

You're certainly in front of Wikipedia...... Never did trust them too much, anyway! The construction date you surmise could be right, though 16 LAA Regt RA were certainly in residence in 1952 if my hearsay info. is correct. I know the Germans can get a move on but to fill that site in a couple of years must be good even by their standards. I presume it was all built by local labour, and good tradesmen too rather than a labour force of Displaced Persons.....All this when Osnabruck, itself, was in ruins and resources would be stretched...... from personal experience, and being involved in the 1950's with the drawings for an Ordnance Depot at Eggington, which aped detail supplied by War Office, continental standards were superior to anything which was much more basic and acceptable in UK.

Which begs the question that, if it was designed and built post-war, who did it? Not the RE's for sure, the accommodation isn't standard Brit, neither is the construction. Maybe it was planned for the Wehrmacht and events put a hold on construction until after VE day. I'm corresponding with a German architect, an ex-Panzer Engineer. He's not too well at the moment, but he might be able to advise me on relevant wartime requirements when I dare trouble him

I wonder if there is any record in the Rathaus or Stadt Museum ? It's likely the military didn't need written approval, but there must have been some co-ordination to cater for statutory services, drainage etc. A construction date would enable you to discount any units not in the area until Quebec was completed. RE Works might help, so might British Forces' Post Office records. They, if anyone, should know when Quebec Bks. got its name & who was in residence.............

And I never asked........ Why do you want to know ?

David L.

Thanks for your info cartav/David L

I have been busy of late so not chipping in but JPW has been researching away so now going back to 1946

The Canadians left the 30 Corps District area later known as the north of Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) replaced by 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division May 46 command 1 Corps District then disbanded Aug 46 replaced by 7th Armoured Division the RA units Jul 46 taken from the records office at Kew

ARTILLERY 7 ARMOURED DIVISION my bit in ()
Headquarters Aurich
3 RHA - Aurich (to Crerar Barracks Oldenburg Apr 47 to Caithness Barracks Verden Apr 48)
5 RHA - Osnabruck (Dodesheide Camp)
21 Anti Tank Regiment RA - Aurich
2 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment RA - Wilhelmshaven

21 AT and 2 LAA must have moved south to Osnabruck except 3 RHA so now feel 2 LAA could have moved into Quebec Barracks maybe the HQRA as well...7 Armd Div had a huge area and was disbanded in Sep 47 reforming Mar 49...2 LAA RA could have remained until replaced by 16 LAA Regt RA in 1952 as part of the new 6 Armd Div...will have to see what comes out
Regards
Steve - still working full time

Have now had a reply from both RHQ Royal Canadian Military Engineers and RBL Osnabruck

One can categorically say the Canadians were definitely not involved in the naming of Quebec Barracks, it was a purely British decision and the name does commemorate the Battle of Quebec

The choice of Barrack names in Osnabruck does not follow a consistent theme but Quebec and Imphal were selected to reflect Battle Honours (one old, one new). RBL Osnabruck have yet to confirm who selected the names and when.

steve wrote:

cartav wrote:

'Lo Steve,

You're certainly in front of Wikipedia...... Never did trust them too much, anyway! The construction date you surmise could be right, though 16 LAA Regt RA were certainly in residence in 1952 if my hearsay info. is correct. I know the Germans can get a move on but to fill that site in a couple of years must be good even by their standards. I presume it was all built by local labour, and good tradesmen too rather than a labour force of Displaced Persons.....All this when Osnabruck, itself, was in ruins and resources would be stretched...... from personal experience, and being involved in the 1950's with the drawings for an Ordnance Depot at Eggington, which aped detail supplied by War Office, continental standards were superior to anything which was much more basic and acceptable in UK.

Which begs the question that, if it was designed and built post-war, who did it? Not the RE's for sure, the accommodation isn't standard Brit, neither is the construction. Maybe it was planned for the Wehrmacht and events put a hold on construction until after VE day. I'm corresponding with a German architect, an ex-Panzer Engineer. He's not too well at the moment, but he might be able to advise me on relevant wartime requirements when I dare trouble him

I wonder if there is any record in the Rathaus or Stadt Museum ? It's likely the military didn't need written approval, but there must have been some co-ordination to cater for statutory services, drainage etc. A construction date would enable you to discount any units not in the area until Quebec was completed. RE Works might help, so might British Forces' Post Office records. They, if anyone, should know when Quebec Bks. got its name & who was in residence.............

And I never asked........ Why do you want to know ?

David L.

Thanks for your info cartav/David L

I have been busy of late so not chipping in but JPW has been researching away so now going back to 1946

The Canadians left the 30 Corps District area later known as the north of Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) replaced by 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division May 46 command 1 Corps District then disbanded Aug 46 replaced by 7th Armoured Division the RA units Jul 46 taken from the records office at Kew

ARTILLERY 7 ARMOURED DIVISION my bit in ()
Headquarters Aurich
3 RHA - Aurich (to Crerar Barracks Oldenburg Apr 47 to Caithness Barracks Verden Apr 48)
5 RHA - Osnabruck (Dodesheide Camp)
21 Anti Tank Regiment RA - Aurich
2 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment RA - Wilhelmshaven

21 AT and 2 LAA must have moved south to Osnabruck except 3 RHA so now feel 2 LAA could have moved into Quebec Barracks maybe the HQRA as well...7 Armd Div had a huge area and was disbanded in Sep 47 reforming Mar 49...2 LAA RA could have remained until replaced by 16 LAA Regt RA in 1952 as part of the new 6 Armd Div...will have to see what comes out
Regards
Steve - still working full time

History is a mystery...stand by your beds

21 Anti Tank Regiment RA did move to Osnabrück to Caprivi (believe later Belfast) Barracks and renamed 10th Anti-Tank Regiment RA in Apr 47 then to Dragoona Barracks Oldenburg and Q Bty to Crerar Barracks Oldenburg the whole regiment moved to Ubique Barracks Dortmund Dec 47

http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/10thRegimentRA.aspx

Osnabrück post May 1945 was 3 Inf Div's patch until Aug 45 then was part of 3rd Canadian Infantry Division CAOF area (have a map) with British and Belgium units along with 1st Polish Parachute Brigade in the area when the Canadians moved out May 46 appears 1st Polish Armoured Division moved from Meppen into Osnabrück and disbanded there May 47...by then 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division had been disbanded Aug 46 in the north with 7th Armoured Division who had taken over then moved south when the Norwegians took over...JPW to confirm

Believe the reason for the Canadian Engineers in Osnabrück there must have been a massive rebuild of war damaged barracks...think the only barracks with a railway connection was Roberts Barracks so guess the 11 Hussars were the first British Army unit in there with others Feb 48

5 RHA recorded in Dodesheide Camp aka Imphal/Mercer Barracks...so left with 2 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment RA...could they be the first in Quebec Barracks OR maybe the 1st Battalion Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort’s Own) they were part of 22 later 7 Armd Bde arriving Osnabruck Jan 47 and moved to Elizabeth Barracks Minden Dec 47

http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/Rifle_Brigade.aspx

The truth must be out there
Cheers
Steve

Perhaps it would useful if I was to summarise my thoughts on the subject

As an aside thanks to a prompt from Dan based in Toronto, I have an electronic copy of the post deployment report of CAOF Engineers activities in the period May 1945- March 1946. The original document is held in the Canadian Defence Archives in Ottawa.

This clearly states that the role of the Canadian Engineer Works organisation was to
1 Provide the appropriate accommodation for the Canadian Divisional Troops, former Prisoners of War and Displaced Personals in the CAOF area
2.Maintenance of the Routes required for military traffic
3. The improvement of these routes (initially only fit for single line traffic)
4. The requisition and control of engineer stores.

There was no mention of any new build projects.

Returning to the subject of the Lagereversburg/Quebec Barracks I believe an outline history of the complex might be

1. Original built to the standard wooden hut German design to provide additional military accommodation during the rapid expansion of the Wehrmacht immediately prior to the outbrake of World War 2.
2. During the War used as a Prisoner of War Camp (particularly for Yugoslavians)
3 Following the German Surrender in 1945 initially used as temporary accommodation for freed POWs prior to repatriation to their homeland. Subsequently used to provide accommodation for those POWs who refused to return home fearing discrimination by the Tito (Communist backed) Government and other former Forced Foreign Labour persons.
4 Late 1940s complex handed over to the British Army. Wooden Huts demolished and accommodation (both living and working) provided in the form of Op Humane design bungalow style blocks. On opening named Quebec Barracks.
5. Selected buildings upgraded in the late 1980s/early90s accordance with the British Army Barrack Modernisation plans as shown in the photos
6 2000 onwards, site handed back to the Stadt/Lander Authorities following the closure of the British Osnabruck Garrison in accordance with the drawdown of BAOR.

My personal thoughts entirely, additional comment and information most welcome

PS. The story of the Polish 1st Armoured Division post May 1945 is a tragic one, they were undoubtedly the victims of Cold War Super Power Politics. I do not believe they were ever given operational responsibility for any large German Town but the Headquarters of the remnants of the Division prior to disbandment in Spring 1947 could have been in Bramsche to the north of Osnabruck

Thanks JPW
Here goes for our research put together but not yet complete but unit detail for the southern part of the Canadian area and the Polish area of responsibility hoping to work who was where in Osnabrück



Jun 45 – 30th Corps District until May 46

75th Anti-Aircraft Brigade RA – Osnabrück area
107th Anti-Aircraft Brigade – HQ Bentheim

1st Polish Armoured Division – HQ Meppen command to 1st Corps District Mar 46 disbanded May 47

10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade – HQ Loningen
1st Polish Armoured Regiment – Lindern
2nd Polish Armoured Regiment – Herslake
24th Polish Lancers Regiment – Holte
10th Polish Dragoons Regiment – Emslek

3rd Polish Infantry Brigade – HQ Lathern
1st Polish Highland Battalion – Papenburg
8th Polish Rifle Battalion – Dorpen
9th Polish Rifle Battalion – Werpeloh

HQ Royal Artillery – Lingen
1st Polish Motorised Artillery Regiment – Plankorth
2nd Polish Motorised Artillery Regiment – Lingen
1st Polish Anti-Tank Regiment – Hasselunne
1st Polish Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment – Meppen

1st Polish Parachute Brigade from UK – HQ Osnabrück disbanded May 47
Airborne Anti-Tank Battery
Airborne Light Artillery Battery
Airborne Engineer Company
Parachute Medical Company
Airborne Signals Company
Airborne Transport and Supply Company

1st Polish Parachute Infantry Battalion
2nd Polish Parachute Infantry Battalion
3rd Polish Parachute Infantry Battalion

3rd Canadian Infantry Division CAOF formed in Holland to Germany Jul 45 – HQ Bad Zwischenahn replaced by 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division May 46 to UK Jun 46 then disbanded

1 CRE Works – Oldenburg to UK Apr 46 disbanded responsibility to CRE 1st Corps District
2 Works Section – Osnabrück
3 Works Section – Osnabrück

305th Infantry Brigade – HQ Dissen near Osnabrück to Emden late 45 – 30th Corps District for admin disbanded Jan 46
639 (Essex Regiment) Infantry Regiment RA – Osnabrück
7 Fuselier Battalion Belgium Army – Osnabrück
9 Fuselier Battalion Belgium Army – Georgmarienshutte near Osnabrück to Emden to Belgium Jan 46
80 Light Anti-Aircraft Workshop REME
305 Light Aid Detachment REME
220 B.I.S.
645 Company RASC
Aug 45 – 7 Survey Regiment RA from 50th Anti-Aircraft Brigade – RHQ/HQ Bty Iburg – 53 Bty Bohmite – 54 Bty Melle disbanded Oct 45
Jul 45 – 318 Company RASC

May 46 – 1st Corps District disbanded Jun 47

52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division – HQ Crerar Barracks Oldenburg May 46 to Bad Zwischenahn disbanded Aug 46

155th Infantry Brigade – HQ Dissen near Osnabrück May 46 disbanded Jul 46
4th Battalion King’s Own Scottish Borders – Bad Rothenfelde
7th/9th Battalion Royal Scots – unknown
6th Battalion Highland Light Infantry – Osnabrück May 46

Aug 46 – 7th Armoured Division – HQ Shiel Barracks Verden Aug 46 formed 7th Armoured Division District Bad Rothenfelde Jun 47 to Hannover District Sep 47

8th King’s Royal Irish Hussars – Lingen to 7th Armoured Brigade Jan 47
11th Hussars (Prince Albert’s Own) – Cardigan Barracks Jever near Wilhelmshaven to Delmenhorst Apr 47 to Osnabrück Feb 48

5rd Regiment RHA – unknown to Dodesheide Camp Osnabrück to UK 1948
21 Anti Tank Regiment RA - Osnabrück to Caprivi (believe later Belfast) Barracks and renamed 10th Anti-Tank Regiment RA in Apr 47
2nd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA - Wilhelmshaven former Ebkeriege Kaserne now named Isle of Man Barracks to unknown must have been Osnabrück too

22nd Armoured Brigade – HQ Warendorf renamed 7th Armoured Brigade Jan 47 to Hannover District Apr 48
1st Battalion Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort’s Own) – unknown to Osnabruck Jan 47
Jan 47 – 8th King’s Royal Irish Hussars from 7th Armoured Division – Lingen to UK Feb 48

131st Infantry Brigade – HQ Melle near Osnabrück Mar 46 renamed 31st Infantry Brigade Feb 47 to Hannover District Apr 48

Regards
Steve

Bit more to add clearly the barracks were built or renovated from Eversburg Lager long after the Canadians went home I have read the same as JPW it was a camp for displaced persons you will be pleased to know one of the original wooden buildings is going to be preserved and made into a museum so hopefully the details of which British unit was the first in from 7th Armoured Division as would have still been a camp when 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division had taken over the area after the Canadians

On the liberation of Osnabrück clearly 3 Infantry Division had there HQ somewhere in the town but moved on when 30 Corps District took responsibility then in turn to 3rd Canadian Infantry Division CAOF on formation but used their British and Belguim units for the south of their area including Osnabrück but clearly the 1st Polish Parachute Brigade were also in the town on arrival from UK

http://www.rothwell.force9.co.uk/polish1.htm

Regards
Steve

Cleat 9214, thanks for the pics, although it must be said I found them quite derpressing. I was attatched to 23 Engr Regt Quebec Bks from 89 to 92 and have many memories of the camp, which looked very different then. Quite sad.

a well illustrated potted history of RE (7 Sqn) in Osnabrueck!

http://www.shiney7.co.uk/HistoryPage.html

Noticed a 'blank area' in the history of Quebec....
After the D&Ds left in Jan 1970 the 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Wales took over. I was attached to them (in the LAD) from 1970 to 72 and with them on their second tour to Belfast at the end of 70.
Visited the camp about 5 years ago - definitely brought back memories , especially finding the block and room I lived in!!