A Photograph and Christmas Card from Bergen Belsen 1948.

Hello All...The Photo is of my brother Eric Breakspear's unit taken during his National Service time in Germany. It is from Cain Barracks, Bergen-Belsen in 1948 with the RAC Training Centre BAOR BFPO 23, "his army number started with 1917....". In the photo he is fifth from the right in the back row. He is also now 83 years of age.
Many thanks, Alan

There's some interesting variations of uniform there Alan. I wonder if any of those regiments still exist ?

Alan

Very interesting photo which links in with other info which Steve and I hold on BAOR RAC units of the late 40s

I believe the RAC Depot Regiment was in the Itzehoe area, young NS men must have gone on to Hohne for Phase2 crewman task training before posting to their proper Regiments. Would be interested to know if your brother can confirm my theory.

One small point, the BFPO system of post codes was not introduced in Germany till the early 50s In the late 40s the post code for Hohne was BAOR 23 (which also included Celle). The Barracks must have been Caen not Cain, there are more details of the units based there if you go to the Site Main Page, go to Locations, and then select Hohne.

Brum
I think the only RAC Capbadge still in existence today would be that of the Royal Tank Regiment who in those days had eight Regular Regiments of whom 4/5 were based in BAOR in the late 40s. Now there is not one. All the former Cavalry Regiments have amalgamated atleast once.

Even the RTR cap badge has changed, on the photo it would have had the King George VI Crown nowadays the Elizabeth 2nd Crown is included

brum wrote:

There's some interesting variations of uniform there Alan. I wonder if any of those regiments still exist ?

Before my time, Brum, but the guard on the gate has the wartime late issue pattern BD. Field dressing pocket on the right hip, no pleats in breast pockets (saves material when everything was in short supply) and map pocket on front of left leg, specially conceived to make ironing a crease in the trousers damn near impossible. The fly front of the blouse & flaps to the pockets also went in a material saving exercise. No wonder the girls flocked after the Yanks in their smarter stuff........

Hello JPW...... Yes you are right it was BAOR23 not BFPO23...IT was CAEN Barracks i spelt it wrong, you are right there....."ITZEHOE" Will have to get back to you on that one.....Thanks Alan.

Hello BRUM.....IF there is none of those Regiments in Existence today at least we try and keep them going on this Forum......."keep up the good work"........Thanks Alan.

JPW wrote:

Alan


Brum
I think the only RAC Capbadge still in existence today would be that of the Royal Tank Regiment who in those days had eight Regular Regiments of whom 4/5 were based in BAOR in the late 40s. Now there is not one. All the former Cavalry Regiments have amalgamated atleast once.

Even the RTR cap badge has changed, on the photo it would have had the King George VI Crown nowadays the Elizabeth 2nd Crown is included

The first thing that caught my eye was the "badge" on the sleeve of the WO2 in the front row, (below his crown). I wondered what regt he was and what the origin of the badge was. Then I noticed a couple of white lanyards and the different colours of beret.
"Roger" to the amalgamations, Alan. There's a gent who comes on this forum who was with 7th Hussars before they amalgamated to become QOH, now they've merged again, with the Irish hussars. There's enough regimental history there to fill a museum.

brum wrote:

................ There's a gent who comes on this forum who was with 7th Hussars before they amalgamated to become QOH, now they've merged again, with the Irish hussars. There's enough regimental history there to fill a museum.

Can't remember where I read it, but it was likely to be in something of Max Hastings. Whoever it was, put forward the theory that when the Wehrmacht had to form units hastily from odds and sods in an emergency, it was easier for them to do so when their infantry battalions only had numbers rather than names to tie them to an allegiance to a particular area, to different traditions & different histories. In fact, it is believed that this procedure brings about a reluctance to integrate with units who celebrate other, but no less important, histories.

There's some logic in this, however distasteful it might be to anyone who has become used to celebrating his own formation's successes and traditions, and,whilst doing so, ignores the equally important history of similarly armed units ......... WE are the best ! & don't you bounders forget it ! , sort of thing.

But it's one army. If ( "If" indeed !) it's for the common good, if it's progress, inevitable integration should be accepted.

Quote :

7th Hussars before they amalgamated to become QOH, now they've merged again, with the Irish hussars. There's enough regimental history there to fill a museum.

With those regiments It would have to be a bloody big museum..

Gordon. wrote:

Quote :

7th Hussars before they amalgamated to become QOH, now they've merged again, with the Irish hussars. There's enough regimental history there to fill a museum.

With those regiments It would have to be a bloody big museum..

Yeah, imagine all that silver eh ?
I was thinking, there might be good job there for Shelldrake, "Polisher of The Silver".
Keep him out of harm's way, don't yer know. Trouble is he'd probably sell it all.

[quote="JPW"]Alan

Very interesting photo which links in with other info which Steve and I hold on BAOR RAC units of the late 40s


Brum
I think the only RAC Capbadge still in existence today would be that of the Royal Tank Regiment who in those days had eight Regular Regiments of whom 4/5 were based in BAOR in the late 40s. Now there is not one. All the former Cavalry Regiments have amalgamated atleast once.

There are still a few armoured regiments around JPW, not just the RTR. They're all part of the RAC !

Regiments of the RAC.

Household Cavalry
Queen's Dragoon Guards
Royal Scots Dragoon Guards
Royal Dragoon Guards
Queen's Royal Hussars
9th/12th Lancers
King's Royal Hussars
Light Dragoons
Queen's Royal Lancers
1st Royal Tank Regiment
2nd Royal Tank Regiment
Royal Yeomanry
Queen's Own Yeomanry
Royal Mercian & Lancastrian Yeomanry
Royal Wessex Yeomanry
Armour Centre, Bovington

brum wrote:

Gordon. wrote:

Quote :

7th Hussars before they amalgamated to become QOH, now they've merged again, with the Irish hussars. There's enough regimental history there to fill a museum.

With those regiments It would have to be a bloody big museum..

Yeah, imagine all that silver eh ?
I was thinking, there might be good job there for Shelldrake, "Polisher of The Silver".
Keep him out of harm's way, don't yer know. Trouble is he'd probably sell it all.

Probably would, but don't think they'd be worth much........sniff


I remember at one time the RAC Junior Bleeders wore a "Velvet Fist in an Iron Glove" cap badge, is that still in existence?

Shelldrake wrote:

Yeah, imagine all that silver eh ?

Don't know if you remember all the stuff at Woolwich, Brian, but it sticks in my mind that pride of place was a bloody great cross which they proudly announced was ".........Stolen from an Abbysinian church ".

Have to take you word for it David, I only visited Woolwich twice - once when I was incarcerated in the DB and then in'86 when I got demobbed.

Brum

My apologies what I meant to say was that the only capbadge proudly worn on the photograph still in existence today is that of the RTR, I did not mean to imply the rest of the Armoured Corps had been disbanded.

To compliment Gordon's list of current RAC I think the following comprised the Regular Army component of the RAC in the late 1940s. Not all were based in Germany at any one time and I leave it to some one else to compile the equivalent TA Yeomanry Regiments plus a few RTR Regiments (numbered 4x upwards) who were reorganised and re equipted as TA Armoured Regiments after the end of WW2.

ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS

Household Cavalry

The Life Guards
The Royal Horse Guards

Former Cavalry Regiments mechanised in the period 1928-1941

The King's Dragoon Guards
The Bays
3rd Carabineers
4th/7th Dragoon Guards
5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards

The Royals
The Royal Scots Greys
3rd Hussars
4th Hussars
7th Hussars
8th Kings Royal Irish Hussars
9th Lancers
10th Hussars
11th Hussars
12th Lancers
13th/18th Hussars
14th/20th Hussars
15th/19th Hussara.
16th/5th Lancers
17th/21st Lancers

Royal Tank Regiment
1 to 8 inclusive were regular Regiments

Have donned my tin hat dived for cover and await the tap-tap of the coax ranging machine gun prior to the counter barrage

Shelldrake wrote:

Yeah, imagine all that silver eh ?

Sounds a bit naughty to rob a church, but I suppose the lad who nicked the Cross was honest enough........... He could have had it away in his knapsack

Had the opportunity to visit my favourite military library in Aldershot today and browse their archive shelves.

There follows a list of TA Regiments incorporated into the Royal Armoured Corps in the 1947 reorganisation of the wartime TA Regiments. Other former Cavalry Yeomanry Regiments had reroled as wartime Gunner or Royal Signals Regiments which is reflected in some of the current TA Regiment/Squadron/ Battery titles.

Ayrshire Yeomanry QOY
Cheshire Yeomanry QOY
Derbyshire Yeomanry
Fife and Forfar Yeomanry QOY
Royal Gloucestershire Hussars RWxY
Queen's Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry
Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry RMLY
Leicestershire Yeomanry RY
City of London Yeomanry
2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons) RY
3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters) RY
North Irish Horse QOY
Lothian and Border Horse
Northamptonshire Yeomanry
Northumberland Hussars QOY
Nottinghamshire Yeomanry (Sherwood Rangers) QOY
East Riding of Yorkshire Yeomanry
Scottish Horse
North Somerset Yeomanry
Shropshire Yeomanry RMLY
Staffordshire Yeomanry RMLY
Warwickshire Yeomanry RMLY
Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry RY,RWxY
Yorkshire Dragoons
Yorkshire Hussars QOY
Inns of Court Regiment RY

Royal Tank Regiments TA
40, 41,42,43,44/50 and 45/51 Regiments

None of the above named units exist as independent Regiments, some titles and traditions are retained in the names of some of the Sabre Squadron titles of the current RAC TA Yeomanry Regiments as indicated.

RY Royal Yeomanry
RMLY Royal Mercian and Lancastrian Yeomanry
RWxY Royal Wessex Yeomanry
QOY Queen's Own Yeomanry

Off thread again, (hey ho !) but speaking of old regiments.
While watching the film "The third man" the other day. I noticed Trevor Howard, wearing his beret in a very silly way, was sporting the badge of the 7th Hussars.
Very posh.

.............9/12 Lancers to amalgamate with the Queens Royal Lancers and 1 and 2 RTR to merge together to leave ONE !!
sad days for all involved. Confirmed recently.
atb
pinky
HUSSAR

Greetings from New Zealand
You had a query about the WO2 in the front row of your photograph. I cannot be sure because of the quality of the photograph, but it could be my late father Fred Reed. He served in North Africa in the 7th Hussars, but for some obscure reason, was repatriated in about 1941, his regiment was posted elsewhere in his absence, and he was seconded to the 8th Hussars, and went with them on D-day to Europe. In early 1947 my mother and I joined him at Belsen. Hard facts are that he was in the 7th at Belsen, all else is conjecture. He never talked of his service activities, and my mother's attitude was that she was married to my father, not the army. He retired from the British Army in 1953, and joined the New Zealand Army, becoming a civvy in 1964.

Hello JPW...
My brother with a National Service Intake went from London by train to Harwich for the night boat crossing "on the Empire Wansbeck" to the Hook of Holland. From there to Bielefeld for Four Days before being posted to Caen Barracks Bergen-Belsen. On then from Bielefeld to Hannover by train with a short stop there,then on to Celle off at the station and transported to Caen Barracks for eighteen months in 1947.
In the Photograph personal from the many regiments there at the time were in it "thats why the different uniforms,pointed out in a earlier post". You mentioned the name Itzehoe Area he said he had never heard of it while he was there and could not help with that..
Many Thanks Alan.B..

Hello from New Zealand
Its a very strong possibility that the man in the front row in the uniform of the 7th Hussars was my father who served in Germany after the second world way. He was a WO2.He joined the 7th Hussars in 1932 and on completion of his 20 years service emigrated to New Zealand and joined the New Zealand Army,serving in Waiouru ,Hopu Hopu and Hamilton, in the Armoured division ,before he retired.
He was Frederick John Reed. He was born on the 21st of JUne 1914 in Hammersmith, London. He died in Tauranga, New Zealand in 1987.
I was born in 1948 and narrowly missed being born in Germany. My brother was born in 1947 and was born in Hanover. An older brother was born in Aldershot like me

Alan

Thank you for your input, please pass on an appropriate message to your brother.

We have discussed the locations of the various BAOR based capbadge training centres elsewhere on the site, the RAC Centre in Itzehoe must have closed in late 1946 and then moved to Hohne.

To Son of Fred and Hazel Wiley
I have asked my brother who is in the photo could he remember any names of any personal, and he says the memory of any names has gone. But can remember some things not names so "sorry can't help you"
Keep trying someone will recognize who is in it, give it time and as you say it could be your father. Alan.B