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 Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944

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lancastercrew
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2020-12-09

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PostSubject: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime9/12/2020, 21:50

Hello all
I am researching my partners great uncle who was a Lancaster pilot lost in WW2. One of his crew mates was found in Baerler Busch which is outside Duisburg.
On his grave concecration document is BAOR reference.
Is anyone able to shed any light on it as the document we believe has the exact grid reference of where the crewman was found and thus the crash site.

The reference number is BAOR/GR/CON/2095

The grid reference is K52 A2524. We are unsure if this is a British army grid reference or a German one?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

Regards
Darren and Jenni
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alan8376
Brig
Brig


Number of posts : 579
Age : 73
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime9/12/2020, 22:13

Hi Darren and Jenni,

I have a German friend in Germany who used to specialised in the type of data you seek for plane crashes in Germany, WW2 of British Pilots. I am not sure if he is still involved in his research. I'll check him out!

Can you give a name please?

Regards
Alan
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lancastercrew
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2020-12-09

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime10/12/2020, 05:40

Hi Alan
The crewmen i refer to are Flt.sgt.G.D.Williams 1542376 and Sgt.J.E.W Dickinson 1624199
Part of the crew of Lancaster bomber LM189 WP-U of 90 squadron based at Tuddenham Suffolk. Lost 21st July 1944 to enemy action, crashed 6km NNE Moers Germany.
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alan8376
Brig
Brig


Number of posts : 579
Age : 73
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime10/12/2020, 07:19

Darren and Jenni,

I have noted you latest mail.

I have tracked down my old German friend and sent him your request for information. Fingers crossed!

To speed the mail exchanges, if you are in agreement? Can you PM me your email address please?

Of course I would appreciate you posting on the forum if anything develops with any information received. I think it is good for the site members to take an interest and to place any information and questions should they wish know how things progress.

Alan
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lancastercrew
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2020-12-09

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime10/12/2020, 07:22

Hi Alan
Thats great much appreciated yes I will PM you and certainly happy to post any results found to show the process works.
Thanks very much for your help.
Regards
Darren
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lancastercrew
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2020-12-09

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime10/12/2020, 07:26

Hi Alan
As we are new members a message has come up that I cannot send email links via PM for 7 days. If you could PM me your email I can reply to that.
Regards
Darren
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alan8376
Brig
Brig


Number of posts : 579
Age : 73
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime15/12/2020, 18:27

Darren,

I presume you have this information already regarding Flt Sgt Williams and Sgt Dickinson?

For others who may be interested, I am posting it here.

The raid tok place overnight 20/07/1944 - 21/07/1944. There were 24 aircraft taking part in this raid on Homberg.
( I am not sure if there are other towns named Homberg. I don't know the significance of the small town?). Has anyone got any knowledge of why Homberg might have been singled out?

Alan



Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 HAoMok4
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lancastercrew
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2020-12-09

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime15/12/2020, 18:38

Hi Alan
Yes I have this from 90 squadron ORBs. The raid had a total of 147 lancasters and 11 mosquitos that night. Sadly 20 lancasters were lost on the raid.
The target was the rheinpreussen refineries at homberg which produced 90% of Germany aviation fuel. Following this raid and subsequent raids the output was reduced from 6000 tonnes per day to 120 tonnes per day.
Crucial to stopping the German war machine.
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alan8376
Brig
Brig


Number of posts : 579
Age : 73
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime15/12/2020, 18:53

Thanks ,
It  would appear that they were after the Synthetic Aviation Fuel process.

I must count the 90 Sqn Orb again.!

Darren, can you explain the number of aircraft that night?  I only found about 26 listed for Homberg?  Maybe it involved  aircraft from other Sqn's into that raid to bomb other destinations?


Alan
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lancastercrew
LCpl
LCpl


Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2020-12-09

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime15/12/2020, 19:05

Hi Alan
Yes they were an amalgamation of a number of squadrons to total the amount for the night raid.
I have sent a link to your personal email as I still cannot post links to the forum.

Regards
Darren
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alan8376
Brig
Brig


Number of posts : 579
Age : 73
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime16/12/2020, 09:41

I have now found the 'Homberg' listed as the Bombing Target.

It is a very small place located on the Rhine, between Duisburg and Moers.

Alan


Location Homberg taken from 1944 War Office Map by Royal Engineers Mapping . 

Location of Baerl is probable location of Lancaster crash site, as mentioned by Darren .



Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 3NgsTlz
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Pborn4
Lt Col
Lt Col
Pborn4

Number of posts : 376
Localisation : Between Hannover and Herford, off all main routes
Cap Badge : Not even a reservist now - have been Pborn3
Places Served : Oswestry 1965, Paderborn to 1971, NE Dist, Munsterlager from 1974, Sennelager (1976 to 2012)
Registration date : 2016-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime22/12/2020, 22:27

This is the German Map in use before 1944 for Homberg, and with Baerl in the top left hand corner of the sheet:

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A92733

The place name Baerler Busch is printed outside the frame top left so probably the adjoining sheet left "Moers" is required:
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A89372 (Königliche Forst top right of sheet)



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Pborn4
Lt Col
Lt Col
Pborn4

Number of posts : 376
Localisation : Between Hannover and Herford, off all main routes
Cap Badge : Not even a reservist now - have been Pborn3
Places Served : Oswestry 1965, Paderborn to 1971, NE Dist, Munsterlager from 1974, Sennelager (1976 to 2012)
Registration date : 2016-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime22/12/2020, 23:15

quote   On his grave concecration document is BAOR reference.
Is anyone able to shed any light on it as the document we believe has the exact grid reference of where the crewman was found and thus the crash site.

The reference number is BAOR/GR/CON/2095
(I suspect this means BAOR/Graves Concentration Report /2095 (Army Form W3372  dated 4 Feb 1948  -  see https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2046979/GORDON%20DEANE%20WILLIAMS/#&gid=2&pid=1

The grid reference is K52 A2524.* We are unsure if this is a British army grid reference or a German one?  Unquote
(*I think the reference above is a code for the Cemetery name/ and the co-ordinate of the temporary grave until the bodies were moved to the War Cemetery at Reichswald.  )

You might consult Commonwealth War Graves Commission who can decode these references from the original documents they hold.  
Here for instance is a record for Frank McGlone the pilot - https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2039988/FRANK%20McGLONE/
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2036171/JOHN%20EDWARD%20WILLIAM%20DICKINSON/
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2046979/GORDON%20DEANE%20WILLIAMS/
Son of William Henry and Alice Lilian Williams, of Lower Walton, Warrington, Lancashire.
And reference details of the Reichswald Cemetery near Kleve:.
LOCATION INFORMATION
The town of Kleve lies in the west of Germany close to the Dutch border, approx 130kms to the north west of Koln, and approx 25kms to the south east of Nijmegen. NB: The closest airport is at Dusseldorf (Weeze). From the A57 motorway Koln to Goch take exit 2 (Ausfahrt 2) KLEVE / GOCH-WEST and follow the signs for KLEVE. After approx 2kms turn left onto the B504 and follow the direction KRANENBURG. Continue for approx 7kms and then turn right onto the GRUNEWALDSTRASSE, direction KLEVE Continue for approx 3.5kms and the cemetery can be found on the right. The cemetery address is:- Grunewaldstrasse 47533 Kleve Germany GPS Location is:- N 51 44 21 E 06 04 48
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alan8376
Brig
Brig


Number of posts : 579
Age : 73
Localisation : Norfolk, UK
Cap Badge : REME
Places Served : Carlisle AAS, Aden, Hildesheim, Bordon, Fallingbostel, Dover, NI Tours, Osnabruck, Herford, Muenster, UN Nicosia, SBA Dhekellia Cyprus x2, Waterbeach, Civi Street 1988. Retired from VOSA 2007.
Registration date : 2009-07-28

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PostSubject: Re: Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime23/12/2020, 14:23

After looking through maps old and new on the net.  I have come to the conclustion that the K52 A252 actually refers to a normal location and not as we first suspected, that it was a Map ref of German or British Military origin used during WW2 era..


Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 4mDNrOK


If one looks at the illustrated Card of the original grave entered, you will see that the card was actually completed in 1948. So what was the point of entering a war time code.  None at all!

K52 in my opinion, relates to a 'Kreisstrasse' No 52, and includes a Cross road grid ref of some type A2524 from a map?

Germany doesn't so much use the old Kreiss name for streets etc,  which connect towns, villages and districts.  Of course many areas of Germany mainly southern Germany which still retain the early practise of having a Kreisstrasse.

A closer inspection using 'Google Earth' Street View, you will find that 'Baereler Busch' still has a very short Kreisstrasse!.

A view of the street using the camera option, shows the street narrowing down to a very narrow track after a few hundred yards. Additionally, the houses at the track end are typical single storey cottages. I believe this to be the remains of an original connecting road called K52, but I can't prove it!

Well , that's my theory!
Alan
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Pborn4
Lt Col
Lt Col
Pborn4

Number of posts : 376
Localisation : Between Hannover and Herford, off all main routes
Cap Badge : Not even a reservist now - have been Pborn3
Places Served : Oswestry 1965, Paderborn to 1971, NE Dist, Munsterlager from 1974, Sennelager (1976 to 2012)
Registration date : 2016-12-16

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PostSubject: Lost Lancaster Crew   Lancaster bomber crew 21st July 1944 Icon_minitime23/12/2020, 15:47

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/244303

http://www.aircrewremembered.com/mcglone-frank.html

with photos of personnel

sn instruction says clcking on any picture will enlarge it
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