national service

brum wrote:

...I was sitting in a British Legion club and the general conversation was generally about the useless scum that, at that time, were making life unpleasant for everybody. Heads traversed in my direction and the opinion was voiced that "they should all be put in the army, that'd sort 'em out". My reply was "why should the army have to do it, these gobshites are scum because society has been too weak to bring them up properly. People don't think they're responsible for their kids behaviour anymore."
It's worse now, my generation was used to being shouted at from our school days, these present-day plonkers would be seeking counselling if they got a mild bollocking !
Ooh, I'm so angry I could slap my Barbie doll !

Barbie doll...

You are absolutely right, brum....why should the army be saddled with these misfits? While I agree a stint in the army can give a young man some backbone and focus, if he's a slacker he's a slacker and if he's a prick, he's a prick.

My dad often dealt with the same sentiment you experienced (pack 'em off into the army) and, while the Canadian army of his day was not a conscription army, he was adamant the last thing he wanted to deal with as a Sgt and later WO was some incorrigible little sh** who had no respect for anything or anybody, which seems more the case now than when I was an incorrible little sh**!

I imagine, brum, that not only were you shouted at from your school days on up, but probably got the odd cuff across the back of the head as well. Try that now! Even when I was in school (graduated High School in 1973, so that gives you bit of an idea) it was not unusual, although starting to be, for a teacher to be "physical" with a mouthy or unruly student. Mind you, by then the whole philosophy of hands-off was coming into vogue....but I do remember in my junior years a gym teacher of mine, Mr. Sharkie, had no qualms of grabbing some mouthy prick by the front of his shirt and tossing him up against the lockers. Looking back, I realize he would likely never have actually hauled off and hit the guy, but nobody knew it back then! And if Mr. Sharkie, who had biceps on him the size of melons, hauled off and plowed you one my guess is whoever got plowed would still be bouncing!

When I attended Cornwall School in Dortmund, circa 1971, we had a few teachers who could fire a piece of chalk across a classroom with deadly accuracy.....PING! right off the upper left quadrant of yer forehead, no problem! And believe me, chalk richocheting off your skull at that speed hurts! Now? The teacher would be hauled up on assault and abuse charges and probably dismissed in public shame.

Neighbours too.....if Mrs. Jones down the way paddled your butt and you went home and complained one of two things would happen: ! -- "What did you do to deserve it?" and/or 2-- another hiding for whatever it was Mrs.Jones had smacked you for to begin with! If Dear Mrs. Jones tried that now with any of the neighbourhood kids....if the kids didn't slit her throat for her, the parents would sue her....how dare she lay a hand on their Precious Brittany or LIttle Joshua!! That Brittany is a b**** and Joshua a raging brat....oh no, they're just expressing themselves!

Meh.....

Don't disagree Stephen but in my experience of corporal punishment, a good number of male teachers got their jolly's out of it.

I doubt very much if NS would work now unless you could do what they did then. Even the dreaded glass house is a lot softer than it was. Not many entered those hallowed walls and wanted to go back again in the "good old days".

There was a programme on the box a short while ago about criminals in war time. One cockney hard knock/gangster was conscripted, did a bunk and was caught. On being delivered to his depot, he informed the Sergeant of the guard (or RSM? can't remember) that he was not going to wear a uniform or be a soldier. Said Sergeant then called out the guard and the rest was history and he became a soldier.

On the other hand, the Kray twins refused point blank to play soldiers despite continual jail and other punishments. In the end they were kicked out, so you could beat the system in a way.

Hi Jerry,

Nice pictue of your Bro. Is he in the RASC? Scruffy looking bugger, Seems to have that look "Stuff your Army - days to do!

LOL, are those civvie shoes he's wearing?

brum wrote:

The earlier days of my time in the army was spent among NS men. There had been a couple of generations of men who had "done their bit" and the majority of these lads just got their heads down and were resigned to doing their time, just like all those before them.
OK, they all had their "Days to Do" charts and couldn't wait for demob but most of them had a lot of fun and gained some self-respect from the time they spent in the forces before going back to their dreary old civvy jobs.
The army benefited from having NS men too, if you needed a signwriter, for example or a decorator you could be sure there was one among our ranks who's trade it was in civvy street.
On a course once, in the 70's, I was sitting in a British Legion club and the general conversation was generally about the useless scum that, at that time, were making life unpleasant for everybody. Heads traversed in my direction and the opinion was voiced that "they should all be put in the army, that'd sort 'em out". My reply was "why should the army have to do it, these gobshites are scum because society has been too weak to bring them up properly. People don't think they're responsible for their kids behaviour anymore."
It's worse now, my generation was used to being shouted at from our school days, these present-day plonkers would be seeking counselling if they got a mild bollocking !
Ooh, I'm so angry I could slap my Barbie doll !

This was always the argument (except perhaps the Barbie doll bit ) during my time in the 60s & 70s when the subject of National Service or Conscription came up. Most peoples knee jerk reaction was that NS should be brought back, usually citing "sorting out the Yoof of the day" as the primary reason. I totally agreed with Brum's view, and still do, that it isn't the Forces responsibility to cure the ills of Society. Already by that time we were a comparitively small Army and huge influxes of NS men would have tied up large amounts of Regulars to train them from an already overstretched manpower and of course that would always be the case because succeeding intakes would only be replacing NS men/women who were due demob.

Mike

Hi mjm34,

Ageed

Actually, my Barbie doll quite likes being slapped, (it's always worth spending that little extra !).

Another reason for stopping the NS was, of course the expense. Men were trained to a high standard and, at their most efficient, leaving. The big training camps (In the case of the RA, Rhyl) were closed and units had to find instructors to train replacement signallers and drivers, etc. It all cost money.

How they ever found the troops for Churchill's funeral parade I'll never know, they certainly couldn't do it now.

After reading through this thread I realise that NS had its perks for regular soldiers.

My old man was a regular Sgt at age 21, a LCpl straight out of boy training in 1952/3...

I on the other hand waited nearly 4 years to get a permanent tape up - not through being inept or a scroat but due to no vacancies - none on establishment etc.

I was an acting, local unpaid LCpl for 8 months whilst an AMP (auxiliary military policeman) and an acting Cpl whilst in Bosnia - I certainly had the skills and notion but the nineties, the cuts and the stagnation of service life brought little to no advancement. When I was in the second time (2004-07) I was an acting Cpl within 3 months..... War has its advantages.....

Themaadone wrote:

After reading through this thread I realise that NS had its perks for regular soldiers.

My old man was a regular Sgt at age 21, a LCpl straight out of boy training in 1952/3...

I on the other hand waited nearly 4 years to get a permanent tape up - not through being inept or a scroat but due to no vacancies - none on establishment etc.

I was an acting, local unpaid LCpl for 8 months whilst an AMP (auxiliary military policeman) and an acting Cpl whilst in Bosnia - I certainly had the skills and notion but the nineties, the cuts and the stagnation of service life brought little to no advancement. When I was in the second time (2004-07) I was an acting Cpl within 3 months..... War has its advantages.....

It wasn't that NS had it's perks for the Regulars Martin, the NS men enriched our lives, they were our mates, even if they did call us "Thick Regulars". They were squaddies, as were we all and when they were gone the Army was poorer for it.

Interesting point about Acting Rank, apart from WOI/WOII I seemed to be always acting.

As a PTE I was Local Acting LCPL, as a LCPL I was for a short time Acting CPL on posting to a CPL's post, ditto SGT and SSGT, it seemed that every time I was promoted Records post me to a higher rank post. Most odd, still apart from when I was a local LCPL it was all paid so I'm not moaning.

I did my time at 5 infantry workshop from 1954 1956,what a wonderfull time,great place wonderfull food and sleeping acomadation,Witten Annen great place,i was held back because the SEUZ crises,like to hear from any body who was there at that time,some great stories,any photos.BRUM

jim wrote:

Interesting point about Acting Rank, apart from WOI/WOII I seemed to be always acting.

As a PTE I was Local Acting LCPL, as a LCPL I was for a short time Acting CPL on posting to a CPL's post, ditto SGT and SSGT, it seemed that every time I was promoted Records post me to a higher rank post. Most odd, still apart from when I was a local LCPL it was all paid so I'm not moaning.

My short time in the Royal Signals had me the same way taking over the G1098 stores as a Signalman from a Cpl at the end of his 22 years was told would have to wait for LCpl as no vacancy…got local LCpl on my 20th birthday and acting 28 days later then ran the troop MT taking over from a Cpl at the end of his 22 years still having the G1098 stores…posted to UK with Sub/LCpl within that year and a year later was told no vacancy to promote to Cpl so was posted to a new squadron with a vacancy the squadron was forming up for NI but the OC thought I was to junior to be a Cpl and only got A/Cpl (backdated) when asking for a transfer out of the Royal Signals went to NI Feb 72 and purchased my discharge mid 73 really enjoyed the job just the Royal Signals management continued to be a problem…handed over to a Sgt as the job had changed dramatically in a short time…so was a Sub/LCpl – Acting/Cpl doing a Sgts job!

Sub L/Cpl 18...Sub Cpl 19..Local Acting PAID Sgt 24 ( to keep me out of trouble).. Sub Cpl 25.(didn`t work).Out 27 .Ex Brat Tech

'ummmm ... Substantive Lance Corporal ... I dunno, wasn't a Lance Corporal an appointment .. and the first substantive rank a Corporal .. I went from Signalman to Acting Corporal to Substantive Corporal .. then after retraining to Lineman, appointed lance Corporal then Acting Corporal, then Substantive Corporal then Acting Sergeant then Substantive Sergeant. The last two on the same day.

Len (Ciphers)

Just checked my service record Len..Says promoted L/Cpl 14/12/61.I have heard of this appointment business before but never came accross it while serving.

Hi briandcross, I was at 5Inf w/shops in 1956, you are right the best living accomodation I ever came across, although in winter one of if not the coldest places I ever served, by the wind across the parade ground was enough to cut you in half, I have a photo of 5Inf during an Admin taken from the roof, it is on file on this web site somewhere but I can send you a copy if you wish, look forward to hearing from you.

Hi Mikey,how nice to hear from a old sweat,you must be as old as me,iwould like very much to see any photos you have of the camp,I was in the RAOC ,attached to the REME,plenty good stories only got one photo outside the rear where the big empty static big water tank was,12 marks to the pound cigs one shilling for twenty,good sell to the Germanys working in the camp,one mark a pack,look forword to hearing from you with lots more stories.BRIAN.live in BIRMINGHAM

ciphers wrote:

'ummmm ... Substantive Lance Corporal ... I dunno, wasn't a Lance Corporal an appointment .. and the first substantive rank a Corporal .. I went from Signalman to Acting Corporal to Substantive Corporal .. then after retraining to Lineman, appointed lance Corporal then Acting Corporal, then Substantive Corporal then Acting Sergeant then Substantive Sergeant. The last two on the same day.

Gordon. wrote:

Just checked my service record Len..Says promoted L/Cpl 14/12/61.I have heard of this appointment business before but never came accross it while serving.

Have checked my service record too in the Royal Signals was unpaid Local LCpl for 35 days then paid acting LCpl getting substantive later in the year on posting...the RE service shows straight to substantive LCpl…the rest is history!

My induction regt. at Oswestry, did me a favour...... or so I thought. Whilst everyone else had a greatcoat with shiny RA buttons which needed weekly attention with rag & polish, mine had khaki, plastic GD fasteners which were adorned with the Royal Coat of Arms. Except for winter guards we never wore greatcoats so, for a month or two, mine was never subjected to careful scrutiny. However, they were on display in the billet, hung above the bedhead under a shelf on which the small pack perched.

Normal inspections by tp. cdr and even Bty. Cdr never raised any comment. When the time came for pre-Admin Inspections, more diligent attention on the day before the Regt. CO's visit raised the alarm. Name was noted on clipboard, instruction was passed down to change buttons before next morning.

The G1098 storeman was hardly helpful for he, too, was under pressure. I waited for attention at the counter, it came with reluctance. "I want a new set of greatcoat buttons", I pleaded. He countered, now intent on wiping down the worktop with a yellow duster. "Where's the old ones?" he snarled. I shrugged an answer "Still on the coat". Bloody NS men he thought. "You know the drill! One for one. Bring the old ones in & I'll swap 'em". End of conversation.

15 minutes later, having run to billet to hack off greatcoat buttons with a razor blade, I was back. Ten large buttons ( I think!) from front of coat & 5 smaller ones from epaulettes and half belt were laid on the counter. The storeman sniffed, counted them carefully and dropped a bombshell. " I haven't got any" he said. " Didn't think I had". He returned to polishing.

Fretfully, hating the system and storemen in particular, I returned to a buttonless greatcoat anticipating a sleepless night with needle & thread.
It wasn't too bad, a wiser, older soldier saved the day.Old GS buttons were re- attached by making small holes in the thick serge and running a spare boot lace through the rings on the backs. And, on the inspection, no one noticed.

Ref substantive ranks for junior NCO's............. From what I read the system must have changed again after my time, but around 1955 a Lance Jack's promotion could be protected when a Permanent classification was brought in for one-stripers.

Mr Brian Davison RAOC, has written a book, entitled 'National Service Exploits' in which ex National Servicemen have written about some of their exploits while serving their National Service, he is intending to write a second edition, if any ex N/S Royal Signals personnel or other Regts. would like to contribute, as, like me, I am sure that they will have a 'tale to tell', if they do will they please contact Brian at this e-mail address, with around 750 words, which ideally would incorporate two or three tales if possible. bhdavison@Hotmail.co.UK

Tom Withers 1 Corps Signal Regt BAOR 15 1955/56

Tom, have you put that on the R Sigs contact site? http://www.royal-signals.org.uk/main/

Mr Brian Davison RAOC, has written a book, entitled 'National Service Exploits' in which ex National Servicemen have written about some of their exploits while serving their National Service, he is intending to write a second edition, if any ex N/S Royal Signals personnel would like to contribute, as, like me, I am sure that they will have a 'tale to tell', if they do will they please contact Brian at this e-mail address, with around 750 words, which ideally would incorporate two or three tales if possible. bhdavison@Hotmail.co.UK

Tom Withers 1 Corps Signal Regt BAOR 15 1955/56

Mr Brian Davison RAOC, has written a book, entitled 'National Service Exploits' in which ex National Servicemen have written about some of their exploits while serving their National Service, he is intending to write a second edition, if any ex N/S Royal Signals personnel would like to contribute, as, like me, I am sure that they will have a 'tale to tell', if they do will they please contact Brian at this e-mail address, with around 750 words, which ideally would incorporate two or three tales if possible. bhdavison@Hotmail.co.UK

Tom Withers 1 Corps Signal Regt BAOR 15 1955/56

How did I get promoted to L/Cpl ???

Tom