79 Squadron ambulance train rotting away in Montzen sidings

I noticed a similar topic going on on the ARRSE forums, and a very interesting account which tied up with my view of the ambulance coaches being 1950s, and noting how they kept them shiny, and it was a shame to see them now in such a state. Also there's a link to a YouTube video there of Montzen freight movements which unfortunately just gives a brief glimpse of an ambulance coach in 2007.

Yep been asking for info, I started it! Plus extra PM exchanges with info and I have permission to add text to BAOR-Locations Page as well.

RLC Musium at Deepcut (which contains to RCT Archive) has next to nothing on them, and I suspect that the Musium of Army Transport at Beverly had the info (which used to be the RCT Vehicle collection) had the info, which means that the IWM has it somewhere.

I will be forwarding whatever I can get to Deepcut to create a folder for future referance. I deal mainly with the RAOC Archive at Deepcut which is as patchy on a lot of subjects.

I slept in one of these for some time on a scheme. The train was parked at Dulmen which Depot was then in the course of construction I think, in 1969. I was a small cog in HQ BAOR (Advanced).

As it was necessary to climb up into the carriage from ground level and as I am interested in such things, I recall that the bogies had 1944 0r 1945 dates embossed together with the name of the manufacturer. It might just be my imagination but I also seem to recall 3rd Reich emblems also embossed.

Was that the same type of coach as shown here? I've had a look through all my photos in detail and I can't see any 3rd Reich emblems. Mind you, I can see makers' plates on the bogies but the resolution isn't good enough for me to read any of them. The wheel bearings are embossed with 'Rollenlager' which means roller bearing. The pattern of bogies used on these coaches is I would say post-war and was certainly used into the 1970s. During the war they would have used Schwanenhals (swan neck) bogies (allowing the use of compression coil spring suspension) or Gorlitz bogies which featured an upside-down leaf spring in the middle of each side.
I also saw some older German coaches at Koblenz which have the Gorlitz bogies and I can't see any 3rd Reich emblems on them either. Wish I'd taken more close-up photos now!

Of course I am talking about 1969 and my memory could be playing tricks and I am no expert on Railways although I am interested.

I do distinctly remember thinking that the quality of the engineering seemed good and sound for a period so close to the German surrender.

Hi All
Have you seen my Plaque


http://baor-locations.com/79RailwaySquadronRCT.aspx

Greetings from sunny Iserlohn
I may have a connection with the squadron back in 1976 serving at 40 Army Support Regiment RE Kitchener Barracks Willich with its rail connection exercised moving engineer stores and my job was to load a train using a AEC bridging crane…happy days as I was warm in the cab!
Some history found: 79 Transportation Squadron RE was formed in 1953 to replace 3 Railway Group and 250 Port Op Sqn...source "The History of the of the Corps of Royal Engineers Vol X 1948-60"...would you like the full script? Assume RCT took over in July 1965 but no mention in Vol XI 1960-1980
Cheers
Steve

I thought the quality of the German engineering was good - which is why I think one of the coaches would be saveable. Mind you, the quality of engineering on my German car is also good.
Brian, your link doesn't work for me for some reason?
Hi Steve, more info is always received with interest.
Anyone got any photos of these trains in action?

Please send me your email address by a private message and will forward you what I have
Regards
Steve

The BAOR-Locations Web Site is locked at the moment pending renewal of the URL.

All Railway assets were indeed transfered from the RE to RCT in 1965 Steve.

3 BAD had a Railway detachment from 79 Railway Squadron but a lot of smaller depots relied on German Railways to shunt waggons in & out of sidings.

Thanks Mike...here goes for the early part

MOVEMENT CONTROL AND TRANSPORTATION

ALL Movements staff and detachments in Germany, Berlin, Austria and Trieste came under the control of HQ BAOR, where there was an AQMG (Movements), Lieut Colonel EC Easter. During the period covered by this Volume virtually all movement of troops and freight was by surface means, air travel was little used. The troop route was by sea from Harwich to the Hook of Holland and then by rail across Europe. Up to 1955 the main port for freight was Hamburg after which Antwerp was used. In 1952 the British advanced base had been set up in Belgium and movements personnel were allocated there. Movement control detachments were disbanded when the British troops were evacuated from Trieste in 1954 and from Austria in 1955.

After HQ BAOR moved to Rheindahlen in 1954, the appointment of Colonel Q Movements was upgraded, in 1955, to that of Brigadier Q Movements; which became DQMG (Movements) the following year.

Each administrative district as well as the subordinate HQs in other countries had its own movements staff and movement control detachment responsible for the administration and co-ordination of rail movement, in their own areas, under control of the movements staff at HQ BAOR. In early 1958, the system was reorganised to be administered direct from HQ BAOR, through movement control areas. The movements organisation at the Hook of Holland, Antwerp and Berlin was not disturbed, nor was the movements liaison staff (civilian) which continued to work alongside the Dutch and German railways. A particular movements responsibility was the military train which
was run nightly, in each direction, between Berlin and Hannover, and had a permanent staff comprising: an officer commanding the train, an interpreter, a signaller for the radio which was carried, and a military train guard. A special military freight train was also run to Berlin, every three weeks or so, and transported the general maintenance
requirements of the Berlin garrison.

The general run-down of forces in Europe reflected on the movements organisation which reduced to six area HQs and seventeen movement control detachments as well as one military forwarding organisation depot. Troop movements to and from BAOR had reduced from an average of twenty-one sailings per month in 1956 to twelve
in 1958.

Transportation Sappers had been employed re-establishing German railways and ports as well as running them. It was, however, not difficult to hand over the responsibilities to the local authorities and to recruit German labour to man the military units. A rapid rundown of British troops had reduced, by the end of 1947, the RE Tn units in BAOR to 2 Railway Construction and Maintenance Group, 3 Railway Operating Group and 250 Fort Operating Group; all under the technical direction of a DD Tn, Colonel J H Anderson, on the staff of CE BAOR. By then a number of the Tn minor units were manned by either German ex-servicemen, the German Civil Labour Organisation (GCLO) or the Civil Mixed Labour Organisation (CMLO). In March 1948, 2 Group disbanded, and the remaining 3 Group commanded by Lieut Colonel P D G Buchanan had under command, 254 Railway Operating Squadron running military trains to Berlin, 348 Railway Operating Squadron running the Himminghausen
to Herford railway as well as training railway troops, 253 (Polish) Railway Construction Squadron CMLO organising and constructing railheads on airfields for the Berlin airlift. The port force was reduced to 250 (Polish) Port Operating Squadron CMLO controlling military port operations at Hamburg and running a port workshop, and at one stage they were used to assist in railway construction.

As the emphasis on the defence posture of BAOR changed, Tn were involved in moving the BAOR bases West of the River Rhine and setting up depots for the advanced base in Belgium in 1951 and 1952. The advent of the Chieftain tank required specially widened rail flats which had to be adapted and maintained and the rail movement of out of guage trains carrying Chieftain tanks had to be coordinated. There was also a special C-in-C’s train which was a Tn responsibility as were the ambulance trains. In the early 1950s there was also a need to plan the timetables of troop trains to the Hook of Holland and leave trains to the various leave centres in Germany.

In 1952 a new unit 79 Transportation Squadron was raised to replace both the railway group and the residual port operating elements. With the formation of NORTHAG a multi-national Tn staff continued to be controlled by a British AD Tn NORTHAG and BAOR, until 1958 when the Germans accepted responsibility for supervision of military transportation matters. During the period the AD Tn was a member of the NATO Civilian Planning Board for European Inland Service Transport (PBEIST).

The majority of transportation functions was progressively handed over to the German authorities except within military installations until by 1958 only a liaison function remained to the AD Tn BAOR,
Lieut Colonel G C L Alexander.

Hope we get the website back soon
REgards
Steve

I have an excellent book entitled 'The Bicester Military Railway' which records its building in WWII by Sappers to 1992 just before 'Option for Change' I also have a 1992 DVD of the railway. It is now run by DSDA as the 'Purple Fleet' Soldiers of the RLC still train on the lines today.

Hi all reading with interest about the ambulance trains.After leaving the regular army i stayed in germany.in 1983 BAOR formed initally 2 TA units in Germany made up mostly of ex Army.One of these units was 335 ambulance train(V) BAOR.The ambulance trains were kept at 79 rly sqn in Mönchengladbach who also maintained them.The bulk of train personell were TA based in GB.Once a year an annual camp took place in BAOR and the trains were deployed in their role as casualty evacuation.The trains were made up as follows,Ward coaches with racking,stretchers with wounded could be stacked 3 high and the wounded placed in a triage system.A baggage waggon was also part of the train ,used as Qm store and command post.There was a kitchen diner also .This was my domain.We had gas cookers but the older diners used diesel as cooking fuel.The kitchen was small and we had 2 store rooms for rations.The small dining room seated about 25.We had to cater for the train staff but not the patients who only got beverages though we did actually feed them a few times.Fresh water was a big problem.There was also a generator carraige,basacally a waggon with a huge diesel engine which supplied the whole train with heating and electric when it was not hooked to a loco or cabled to a land line.When on ex we also had 2 german bundesbahn couchette sleepers for staff accomodation.The trains when on camps would be shunted by locos from 79 rly but on the german tracks we were pulled by bundesbahn loco and always had a german railway guard.The train personell was made up of RAMC doctors ,combat med techs,storepersonell QARANC nurses,ACC chefs ,REME mechs and RCT railwaymen,not forgetting the clerks.We exercised from north germany evacuating to the channel ports.After the cold war finished it was clear that the trains did not have a future.335 disbanded in the early 90s,we stayed on a bit as part of the UK train but as far as I know no amb train exists in the british army now.Have so many fond memories of my 12 years with the trains,sad to see them rusting away.IF anyones interested will try and dig out some old photos or if anyone has any enquieries ,please ask

Thanks for such an interesting account! Another precious piece in the jigsaw of our knowledge. My primary and fading hope is that at least one of these quirky (a German coach carrying the Union Jack and regiment insignia) and historic vehicles might be saved. If you go back to page 2 of these comments you find links in the messages to my flickr photos of the train and also Mike's excellent webpage on this site http://baor-locations.com/Hosptal_Train.aspx. containing more of my photos. There were a few generator wagons. Each is basically a luggage van with a bulge in the roof, presumably to take the exhaust silencer? The generator sets have been removed just leaving the mounting blocks on the floor.
I would LOVE to see any old photos of the train in service! You could scan and email them to me. Hopefully I'll get Mike to add them to his webpage.

am away the next few days but will have a look when I get back

One of the most interesting pieces of history about BAOR I have read. Thanks Tommoid.

It would be a shame to lose this piece of history if it's still possible to salvage some of it.

hammy

Many thanks for your invaluable contribution based on first hand knowledge and experience, it really is a tremendous addition to our data bank of authentic information

One question, you mention "evacuation to the Channel ports", where, Zeebrugge? Dunkirk? In my time (in the 70s) I think casualty evacuation plans were based on the use of airfields such as Gutersloh, Bruggen and Wildenrath

I never knew of the existence of these trains, how interesting. Sadly I can't get any of the links to work.

Hi Jim and all
The link is .com if you change to .co.uk you will get through
Cheers
Steve

Since the re-org we moved from .COM to .CO.UK

So http://baor-locations.co.uk/Hosptal_Train.aspx is the currant link.

Of course I will update the page with new info and pictures when they are available.

Oh Cheers Steve, yes I can see the plaque and the train now. Excellent stuff.

Ha, we posted at the same time Mike.

Hi Hammy,

Now that the link is sorted as above, have you seen the pix? Do you recognise these coaches although you would have seen them in pristine condition!?
To an extent these would have been saved by having white painted roofs. In the blazing sunshine the roof otherwise gets so hot that after several years the paint inside gives up and hangs off in large sheets. With the roof getting rusty and losing it's white paint on the outside, this effect is going to accelerate!

Another little note: Hammy said that the cookers used gas or diesel oil (well, I believe people use heating oil in their diesel cars) The little kitchen area at the end of each ward coach had solid fuel cookers as you can see in the photos (probably just for boiling up some tea) There's so much that's interesting (and of the era) in these coaches, and the history surrounding them is fascinating.

the scenario for the amb trains in the 70s 80s was as follows. we would be deployed to a fld hospital ,the hospital was either on a rail head or the casualties for evacuation would be transported from hospital to train by road. The casualties had to be in a stable condition .The rail coaches were ward coaches and there was no op facilities on board.On one ex we evacuated casualties from near celle down to the channel port of calais