Location

My father died when I was young and I never got to discuss the war (2nd WW) with him .
He was from Southern Ireland but joined the British Army and was a Despatch Rider. I have a photograph with the following written on the reverse.
rfm R.Bell
14710740
31 the Loyals R1
HC Coy MTS ( letter M is uncertain)
BAOR
also the word Omagh
I was told he was in Belgium and in Holland in 1945 and possibly Germany .
If anyone has any information as to what , where etc I would be greatly appreciative.
Regards
Michael Bell

Motor Transport Section? Could be HQ company? Rfm is rifleman, i.e. a private.

Respect to all soldiers but especially those who came from other countries when they never had to.

Looks like the Loyal Regiment to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyal_Regiment_(North_Lancashire)



But as far as I know they did not have a 31 Batt?

This is a funny one.
I agree Mike, I don't think any Regt had 31 Battalions in WW2.
I've been looking at my records but all I've got for that war is a Cpl in 148 (9 Bn The Loyal Regiment (North Lancs)) Regiment RAC.
I've got six from The Loyal North Lancs Regt from WW1 but they are Privates. woodgreenman's father was a Rifleman, I wonder if he was attached from another Regiment ?

brum

I'd have said the Loyals as well, I'm sure they were Rfn.

brum wrote:

This is a funny one.
I agree Mike, I don't think any Regt had 31 Battalions in WW2.
I've been looking at my records but all I've got for that war is a Cpl in 148 (9 Bn The Loyal Regiment (North Lancs)) Regiment RAC.
I've got six from The Loyal North Lancs Regt from WW1 but they are Privates. woodgreenman's father was a Rifleman, I wonder if he was attached from another Regiment ?

brum

It's even weirder than that. I believe that originally, post WW1, personnel numbers were issued in blocks by Regiment/Corps, then in 1944/45 according to a post on ARRSE numbers had a 14 prefix added to either 7 or 8 digit serials and given the clues WW2 and BAOR, that would make it 1947 or later.

The number 14710740, as an 8 digit number would have been allocated to someone in the Royal Artillery. If the number was 710740 with the 14 prefix added then it's Cavalry of the Line. So what's a Rfn doing in the RA or the Cavalry? Strikes me that either the info on the back of the photo is incorrect or has an interpretation that none of us have thought of as yet.
Mike

If the number is correct, the Army Personnel Centre in Glasgow would be able to supply his service record. It used to cost £30.00, with a waiting time of about three months.

31 Bn's is a lot, but from Wiki

Quote :

The Lancashire Fusiliers raised seventeen battalions for service in the Second World War.

so maybe? I don't know

Michael

You have posed a fascinating and challenging question.

Some members of this site are aware that Steve and I are attempting to compile a list of all those major units (and their locations) who were part of the British Zone of Occupation in Germamy in the period VE Day (May 1945) to 1949. My reply is based on the evidence we have amassed so far using official documents, but there are gaps and contradictions, plus personal memories logged on the internet, a challenge as unofficial abbreviations, probably clearly understood at the time, but a mystery now are often used

Southern Ireland (Eire) was officially neutral during WW2 but many tens of thousands of her citizens did voluntarily join the British Forces, your father must have been one. Similarly many of Irish descent joined the Australian, Canadian, New Zealand or South African Forces as well as those of the US

Looking at the detailed evidence
1. The word Rfn suggests he joined initially a Rifle Regiment. Options include The Kings Royal Rifle Corps and the Rifle Brigade, both Regiments and their associated TA Battalions operated in the lorried infantry role within Armoured Divisions during WW2 and fit the description "served in France, Belgium and possibly Germany". I have discounted the Royal Ulster Rifles, a proud Protestant Regiment recruited from Northern Ireland who were mainly in the Far East or with Airborne Forces

2, The Army number which others have suggested indicates a Gunner connection

3. 31 LOYALS The Loyals were an Infantry Regiment whose recruiting area was round the Central Lancashire towns of Bolton, Preston and Wigan. Their Regular Battalion was captured by the Japanese at the fall of Singapore, the two WW2 TA Battalions were reroled in WW2 . One became 92 (Loyals) Light Anti Aircraft Regiment RA with three Battery subunits, numbered 317, 318 and 319. The Regiment was part of 3 Division, 30 Corps again fitting the parameters described by Michael

4 BAOR. The phrase BAOR or British Army of the Rhine did not come into official use till July 1945 this suggests the photo was taken somewhere in Germany in Autumn 1945

5. R1 I wonder whether this is actualy RA (Royal Artillery)?

6. MTS. Steve has identified a unit called Mountain Traing School based in Bad Pyrmont which was part of the British ORBAT in Autumn 1945 Michael's father might have sent on a course there

My theory is therefore Michael's father served with 92 LAA Regt RA for the majority of WW2 (The word RFN might therefore be GNR (Gunner) or BDR (Bombadier- Corporal equivalent).

I await with interest further developments, incidentally there is a superb website with a complete electronic history of the Regiment from formation to its disbandment in late Autumn 1945 in the small village of Scheesel, midway between Bremen and Hamburg. tap in 92 (Loyals) LAA Regt RA.

I'm with you most of the way on this JPW and have looked at the site you mentioned.

(The Cpl who is buried here seems to have been in one of the Reconnaisance Regt. units mentioned though).

I can see "31 Loyals" as being one of the Btys but Rfn to read Gnr or Bdr I have trouble with. It's a pity we can't see the actual writing, isn't it ?

Thanks JPW for pointing us in the right direction...quote Wiki but it is not always correct!

The 7th Battalion of The Loyal Regiment (North Lancashire) was a wartime infantry unit raised at the regimental headquarters, Fulwood Barracks, Preston, on July 4, 1940. The bulk of the regiment's recruits were men from Merseyside, Cheshire and Lancashire, who had been called up for military service. The regiment was initially based in Caernarvon, North Wales. It was later on anti-invasion duties in Liverpool, the Scarborough coast, Darlington and Redcar. On November 13, 1941, the battalion was converted to the 92nd (Loyals) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery.

Simply they were infantry and must have kept Rifleman after conversion

Cheers
Steve

Fascinating stuff guys.

Was called on to undertake short notice grandson minder duties to two lively toddlers based in Lancashire. Managed to escape for a short period and visited Fulwood Barracks Preston, the former Regimental Depot of the Loyals and now home to a small military museum commemorating the proud history of three Lancashire Infantry Regiments (East, South and The Loyals) and their successors.

Unfortunately it was a weekend and not all the Museum was open. However a most helpful volunteer Guide ( a former Loyal who joined the Regiment in the 1950s) was very interested in our project and my particular quest. No specific documents refering to 92 LAA Regt were available but he did say he he thought that the records of 7 LOYALS would be in the archive

He also said that the most junior members of the LOYALS' Rifle Companies referred to themselves as Riflemen and not their official rank of Private. I wonder if we have a case of mistaken identity?

Will be back in Lancashire before Christmas and intend to contact the Curator/Archivist to make an appointment to search the hidden records

That sounds like a bit of real good luck there JPW.