Maresfield Barracks - Herford

Never heard of him Weedo .. notice you live in Vancouver ... too bloody cold there for me .. I live in Sunny Abbotsford.

Len (Ciphers)

Correction, Len. I live in WEST Vancouver - BC's banana belt, purportedly home to the rich and famous, though I managed to slip under the wire while the West Van Gestapo were busy beating up a teen-ager with hair longer than local bylaws allow. I'm the exception to the rule; poverty-stricken and unknown. As a matter of interest, you and I have crossed paths before - some years ago on another ex-service BB (Service Pals, I think). Did we not once consider meeting for coffee in somewhere like Port Moody or Coquitlam? It never came to anything - we couldn't agree on who'd be picking up the tab.

Not me Weedo, if you had met me you would have DEFINITELY remembered me .. you guys on the North Shore still paying bridge tolls to the Guinness family.

Len (Ciphers)

We never met - but I think we did exchange a few insults on some ex-service bulletin board or other. I certainly remember your name. Only fools who live south of the Fraser pay tolls. Ours were abolished in the '50s. For you, the extortion's only just beginning. .

Weedo,

You being familiar with HQ BAOR Sig Regiment. This is the Google shot of the barracks with the accommodation block I was in in 1952, marked with the Red Arrow.



Jimsigs1

One thing that I enjoyed was a long soak at the Spa Baths, wooden tubs and mineral water heated just right. The best thing after a night shift at HQ BAOR (Cipher Office). Generally a couple of squadies and a couple of WRAC's made up the shift. Memories ..
We were housed at #2 Charlotten Str, a requisitioned private house.

Len (Ciphers)

Time for another bone question from over the pond.

So, I'm thinking from reading this thread (and the Canadian Signallers in NORTHAG thread) that the BAOR Signal Regiment and the NORTHAG Signal Regiment were two completely different organizations?  Even though the two headquarters were co-located in the same building?

Cheers,
Dan.

Dan: I have a feeling - though it's testing my memory of events of more than 60 years ago - that HQ BAOR became either 18 AG or 21 AG, and eventually NORTHAG. I may be completely out to lunch - and I've no doubt others with sharper memories than mine will pounce and correct any misconceptions I may have. I don't recall any Canadian Signallers in Herford during my time, though I believe some Van Doos were located in or near Hannover. I heard rumours too, that the 'nick' - the Military Corrective Establishment - was also run by Canucks. Happily, I never personally had a chance to verify that.

This contains the answer I think

Len (Ciphers)

The formation of NATO in 1949 had the BAOR as the British land force contribution. In September 1950 saw 11th Armoured Division reformed on German soil. I Corps was also reformed a year later, after its disbandment in 1947. 1951 saw the recreation of 6th Armoured Division in Great Britain, with it being moved to Germany in 1952. At this point the BAOR consisted of the following:

1st Corps (Bad Oeynhausen)

6th Armoured Division
7th Armoured Division
11th Armoured Division
2nd Infantry Division

British Troops Berlin
Rhine Army Troops

Hamburg District
Hanover District
Rhine District

5 Army Group Royal Artillery (Anti-Aircraft)
School of Artillery, BAOR
Engineer Training Establishment, BAOR
RAC Training Establishment, BAOR
Rhine Army All Arms Training Centre
Aquatic Training School, BAOR
On 29 November 1952, the Headquarters of Northern Army Group (NORTHAG) formed. This NATO creation saw the BAOR being placed under its command. The ceased to by an occupation force and became responsible for the northern front from Hamburg to Kassel in the event of a Soviet invasion. To view a summary of the British Army in 1952 please click here.

During October 1954 HQ BAOR reallocated from Bünde to Rheindalen. Only a month earlier had seen the first large scale NORTHAG exercise, appropriately named, Battle Royal. The BAOR at this point still consisted of 80,000 troops.

1956 Saw more major changes to the BAOR. Brigade groups took over from divisions as the smallest operative units. This was the first major step towards the army of today, with a brigade group comprising of armour, infantry, an engineer squadron and armoured reconnaissance regiment, opposed to divisions comprising of solely infantry of armour ( the first case of mixed brigades being used effectively was near Soltau, April 1945, by 4th Armoured Brigade, led by Brigadier Carver). Also during this year on 1 April, 11th Armoured Division was reorganised into 4th Infantry Division. This consisted of:

10th Infantry Brigade Group
11th Infantry Brigade Group
12th Infantry Brigade Group

It was decided in 1957 that the British Army defending Europe from the Soviet threat should reduce down to 64,000 (still over three times of what remains today). The following year 7th Armoured Division was given the prefix of 5th and 6th Armoured Division amalgamated with 2 Inf Div who moved from Hilden to Lubbecke where the HQ was locate in TAX House.

Between 1958 and 1960 National Service came to an end and further reductions in manpower took place. With 55,000 men, the restructuring of the BAOR took shape in the for of three divisions of two armoured brigade groups and five infantry brigade groups.

In June 1960 came the creation of the 1st Amoured Division, formally 5th Armoured Division. Under its command came 7th and 20th Armoured Brigade Groups.

Thanks, Len. I had it arse about face. 21 Army Group was the forerunner to BAOR, thence Northern Army Group. 21 and BAOR had the same crossed swords shoulder flash, though.

10 Signal Regiment seems to have a link with HQ BAOR/Northern Army Group & 18 Army Gp Sig regt.
According to my copy of Royal Signals Unit Histories of the Corps (1920-2001) by Cliff Lord and Graham Watson, to chronological sequence appears as follows :

1943   21st Army Group Signals
1945   HQ BAOR Signals
1945   2nd Line of Communication Signals
1948   HQ BAOR Signal Regiment
1952   HQ Northern Army Group Signal Regiment
1953   18 Army Group Signal Regiment
1959   10th Signal Regiment (Army Group)
After the defeat of Germany, the Regiment underwent several changes of name and organisation but remained, essentially, the nerve centre of BAOR. It was responsible for all static communications for BAOR as the british occupation force. In 1945 the Regiment comprised of 2,000 soldiers in 73 Signal Troops. By 1946 it had been organised into 1 Squadron (telephone network), 2 Squadron (wireless transmission) and 4 Squadron (Control Commision). Its strength was 60 officers and 1,154 other ranks, By 1949 the regiment was organised into RHQ and1 Squadron at Herford with 3 Line Carrier Troop, 23 and 24 Construction Troops; 2 Squadron at Bad Oeyhausen with the Wireless Group (10 and 14 High Speed Wireless Troops and a detachment of 67 Medium Wireless Troop); and 3 Squadron at Herford with 76 TM and DR Troop.
There is also a connection with 7 Signal Regiment in terms of their location.The regiment was reformed in 1950 and soon moved to West Germany to support the newly formed 1st (British) Corps at Herford where it initially occupied Harewood Barracks, and moved to Maresfield Barracks in 1952.

When I arrived at HQ BAOR Signal Regiment in 1952, I cannot remember any trace of 7 Signal Regt at Maresfield.

All a bit confusing and the organisers of this lot must have had a big headache or there were too many staff officers tripping over each other.
That's my twopennies worth

Jimsigs1

I have been trying to research the Royal Signals in BAOR for some time now and created a blog but it is now locked until more research can be done...the book you mention has many errors...there are many conflicting details regarding 7 Signal Regiment what I have found is always subject to change

1 (BR) Corps Signal Regiment reformed in UK 1950 moved to Harewood Barracks (however could have been Hammersmith or Wentworth) then to Maresfield Barracks Hereford 1952...the barracks were clearly a brand new build a similar design to many others built in BAOR in the early 1950s

1 (BR) Corps Signal Regiment renamed 7 Signal Regiment (Corps) on 1 Sep 59
Corps Main and Step up with 7 squadrons the biggest regiment in the British Army

Renamed 7 (ARRC) Signal Regiment Oct 1992 to Bradbury Barracks Krefeld in 1994 to Javelin Barracks the former RAF Brüggen in Jan 2002 then disbandment Mar 2012

Best regards
Steve

Steve,

You may be right about the book having errors etc. When I was at Harewood Barracks in 1952, I seem to remember that the so called 7 Signal Regt was called 1 Corps Signal Regt an they were at either Hammersmith or Wentworth Barracks, because I had a few mates in 1 Corps. I cannot remember any reference to Maresfield barracks and thought that there were only the 3 main barracks in Herford at that time (Wentworth, Harewood and Hammersmith). But its a long time ago soI'm not 100% sure.
Jimsigs

Steve,
I see your up nice and early. Must be on first stag.

Jimsigs

Jimsigs
Since the forum owner and admin went AWOL I need to login several times a day to check the outside areas and dismiss any alien visitors
Best regards
Steve
NCO i/c marching reliefs

If you want any assistance Steve, I will volunteer.
Jimsigs

My name is Tom Withers I came straight from 4 Tr Catterick as a OKB 3, to 1 Corps Signal Regt Maresfield Baracks Herford arriving on the 5th January 1955 till July 1956, in Block 13 Room 13, and my last four were 1313, so 13 is my lucky number.Did further training to rise in the ranks to Signalman OKB2.

Hi Tom,
Just missed you as I was gone from Harewood Barracks in around June 1954. Maresfield barracks must have been new when you moved in as I remember during most of my stay in Herford, 1 Corps Signal Regt were in either Wentworth or Hammersmith Barracks. Always got them two mixed up. What with 11 Armoured Div Sig Regt us and your lot, there must have been close on around 3000 Siggys in Herford at the time.

I have a book titled "The Royal Corps of Signals" Unit Histories of the Corps (1920 - 2001) and it's antecedents, by Cliff Lord and Grahame Watson, it is a first aedition No,145, it is a worth while read.

During my time with 1 Corps, after getting my OKB2 I used to be Command runner, and also used to be Field Kitchen cook during exercised. talk about multitasking.

Got to agree about multi tasking .. at 20 Armd Bde Sig Sqn I was officially the Brigade HQ Cipher Op.
But looking at my annual reports covering 1952/54 I was also employed at the same time as Troop NCO, Base Signal Office Super, Sqn Clerk, Pay Cpl, and when on schemes Signal Office Super in command of the AFV Sig Cen and NCO i/c Base Linemen. A busy little beaver.

Len (Ciphers)

*** note my move from my old house to an 'old folks home' is now complete except for a ton of unpacking and 'keep this, chuck this' decisions to make.

Whats the old folks home like Len. Not as sparten as the guys at the Royal Chelsea Hospital I bet !!!

Dear all,

I'm trying to get in touch with Len Payne who posted the photo of Wentworth Barracks in 1952 on here.

I'd like to get his permission to use the photo in my forthcoming book about the British Intelligence Division which was based there. I've sent him a PM on this forum but it's stuck in outbox. I've also sent him a message on Skype. Apologies for multiple messages, but I have to show that I've made every effort to contact before using the photograph if I can't get in touch. I'm assuming it has no copyright attached due to its age and who took it but it's always best if authors can get permission.

Thanks for your help.