Canadians and the BAOR

I've posted similar comments elsewhere on the site, but this seemed like a logical place as well.

The Canadian troops were garrisoned in NRW from approximately 1953-54 to 1971. Around 1955 or so, families started being allowed to come over as well.

The Canadians were part of the NATO commitment, of course, but I am not totally certain of the link our Brigade Area (Hemer-Iserlohn-Deilinghofen, Werl, Unna, and Soest-Bad Sassendorf (and maybe Paderborn?) had with BAOR.

I do recall a fair amount of social connections via the Sally Ann, the Red Patch Club, various Mess doos and, it seems to me, the old Brigadier's Mansion on Am Tyrol in Iserlohn (north hill) while Canadian (and derelict even by 1972) had some sort of connection to BAOR. I know that at one time Princess Margaret stayed there.

As the Canadian government, in their infinite wisdom started moving Canadian troops and families down to the Black Forest Region (Lahr, Baden-Baden, and Baden-Soellingen), my father was one of three Canadian personnel (he was Ordance Corp) who remained behind to complete the Close-out and transfer holdings to BAOR. At that time we lived in Iserlohn, also on Am Tyrol, just down below the old Brigadier's Mansion, and I spent considerable time hanging out with the Irish Ranger kids in Hemer at the youth club and various gasthofs in the area. I was the only Canadian dependent still "Up North" in the old Brigade Area.

As I was about to enter what in the Canadian school system would have been Grade 11, it was a challenge as to where I would attend school. My parents, nor I, really didn't want to board me out down in Lahr and an approach was made to Cornwall Comprehensive in Dortmund which agreed to allow me to enroll in the 6th Form (part way through the school year,however. Canadian school start the year in September. Such is apparently not the case with British schools).

My Dad was attached during this year to BAOR and was stationed out of Wetter.

I spent 4 years attached to 1 SSM Bty RCA in Fort Prince of Wales 64-69. Been back a few times. Fort P of W is now an industrial park as is Fort McLeod. Fort Qu'Appelle has been demolished except the Gym for housing. There's still one Canadian living in Deilinghofen who has been there since 66. All though I understand there are some more around the area . Most of the stores and gasthofs are gone now in Deilinghofen. The Royal Canadian Artillery plaque that was mounted on the stone wall in front of the Church in Deilinghofen has been moved down to the old site of the power house near the road with a memorial site to the Hockey history of Canadians/Germans. Was back last summer, they still miss the Canadians. The only thing that bugged me, was the naming of the street leading into Fort P of W's , " England Strasse". Some how doesn't seem right as the Canadians were the original troops there.

England Strasse??? Harumph!! LOL

Have just looked up Fort Victoria Werl and can help to update with the Royal Canadian Engineers units
58 Independent Field Squadron RCE arrived Hameln 1951 which barracks?
2 Field Squadron RCE arrived 1953 moved to the newly built Fort Victoria Werl
1 Field Squadron RCE arrived 1955
4 Field Squadron RCE arrived Oct 57
Sources
History of the Corps of Royal Engineers
History of 2 Division Engineers as appear to be under their command until 1958

Steve wrote:

Have just looked up Fort Victoria Werl and can help to update with the Royal Canadian Engineers units
58 Independent Field Squadron RCE arrived Hameln 1951 which barracks?

Possibly Hanover?

Hardrations wrote:

Steve wrote:

Have just looked up Fort Victoria Werl and can help to update with the Royal Canadian Engineers units
58 Independent Field Squadron RCE arrived Hameln 1951 which barracks?

Possibly Hanover?

Good morning

Too far away Hameln had two barracks Bindon and Gordon and parks/depots on the banks of the Weser plus what was known later as Bridge Camp on the other side of the Weser featured on these website but the RE units details are incorrect

Source: The History of the Corps of Royal Engineers volume X

The Royal Canadian Engineers worked in such close cooperation with the Corps in Germany that a short account of them must be given here. From the end of hostilities until it was withdrawn in June 1946 a Canadian Army Occupation Force remained in Germany.In December 1951, as part of Canada's commitment to NATO, a Canadian brigade group returned and was placed under command of BAOR. 58 Independent Field Squadron RCE was sent to Hameln and was relieved in 1953 by 2 Field Squadron RCE which later moved into newly constructed accommodation in Werl and was replaced by 1 Field Squadron RCE in 1955, who in their turn was replaced by 4 Field Squadron RCE in October 1957.
In the early days of Canadian participation in Northern Army Group, works services were carried out by the RE, but when the Canadian Brigade Group occupied their permanent area, a Canadian works section assumed control and 31 Canadian Works Section was established in Soest in May 1952 under the CRE Paderborn. In 1957 work on the Canadian camp was reduced to maintenance only, the works section "was reduced to nil strength" and maintenance personnel were absorbed into 2 Canadian Independent Brigade Group.

Steve

58th Independent Field Squadron, R.C.E.
25, The squadron arrived in Germany 22 Nov 51 and
was quartered in Hameln with 26 Field Engineer Re^imono, R.E,
Here, on the Weser River, good facilities for engineer training
existed, including a wet-bridging area. The unit embarked on
intensive training which continued until the time for rotation
came in 1953*

Steve if they were quartered with 26 Field Engineer R.E. maybe find out where their barracks were.

Have look at the below site.


http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/ahqr-rqga/AHQ_89.pdf

Thanks for the update 26 Fd Engr Regt was formed Nov 50 and Hameln was full with 23 and 21 Regts so 21 moved to Neinburg just need to know if Bindon or Gordon Barracks...26 Engr Regt reformed Apr 69 at Paderborn and moved to Iserlohn in Nov 70 when the Canadians moved out of Fort Beausejour renamed Corruna Barracks where I served 77-79

Am I right in thinking that there was a Canadian prison in or around Soest? Went there for some kind of weeks break with the troop and I am sure part of this old prison had been turned into a bar by the local brigade. Either 6 or 7 armoured bde?

I'm sure I never imagined it but I'm afraid I was very very drunk. Let's be honest I was often very drunk.

Teabag wrote:

Am I right in thinking that there was a Canadian prison in or around Soest? Went there for some kind of weeks break with the troop and I am sure part of this old prison had been turned into a bar by the local brigade. Either 6 or 7 armoured bde?

I'm sure I never imagined it but I'm afraid I was very very drunk. Let's be honest I was often very drunk.

Yes...1 Field Detention Barracks outside of what was then Fort Henry (Brigade HQ) beside the TDM.

recce83 wrote:

Teabag wrote:

Am I right in thinking that there was a Canadian prison in or around Soest? Went there for some kind of weeks break with the troop and I am sure part of this old prison had been turned into a bar by the local brigade. Either 6 or 7 armoured bde?

I'm sure I never imagined it but I'm afraid I was very very drunk. Let's be honest I was often very drunk.

Yes...1 Field Detention Barracks outside of what was then Fort Henry (Brigade HQ) beside the TDM.

Oh I wasn't that drunk then? Horrible spooky place though.

recce83 wrote:

Teabag wrote:

Am I right in thinking that there was a Canadian prison in or around Soest? Went there for some kind of weeks break with the troop and I am sure part of this old prison had been turned into a bar by the local brigade. Either 6 or 7 armoured bde?

I'm sure I never imagined it but I'm afraid I was very very drunk. Let's be honest I was often very drunk.

Yes...1 Field Detention Barracks outside of what was then Fort Henry (Brigade HQ) beside the TDM.

Also known as , " Happy Valley". Never had to do time there but I did do a few escorts of taking in and taking out of some customers. I remember taking one fella in who was on his second trip. It seemed like home to him. I've since tracked him down. He died in 72 booze and drugs. They shut the detention centre down in 67 or 68. Any body doing over 30 days did it in Valcartier or Edmonton from then on. We one fella from our unit who was sent back for not co-operating. Only case I ever heard or saw of that happening.

Not cooperating? Would that be the same as refusing to soldier?

Had one lad who did that because he suddenly got religion. Very likeable bloke and he got put away for a few weeks. Came back a changed man and carried on soldiering.

In one of the other threads...Korbecke, I believe, or perhaps one under "Moehnesee" there was mention a year or so ago of a "Canadian prison" located there.

As a teen, I had my fair share of run-ins with MPs (and I'm not talking Members of Parliament LOL...that came much later!), most notably the unfortunately named Cpl. Christmas. I also remember a friend and I leading some Belgique Red Caps on a merry little chase through the winding streets and lanes of the old city in Soest on our mopeds. We knew the city inside and out, they didn't, plus being on a 50cc and 49cc moped respectively we were able to zip down some very narrow "gasse" the Red Caps' jeep couldn't and by doing so, come out the other end some 3 blocks from where they were. Good fun.

However, we NEVER ended up in jail and really I had no idea such establishments existed, although looking back I suppose I was somewhat aware of on-base detention/stockade.

3 Base Ammunition & Petroleum Depot (3 BAPD) at Bracht on the Dutch Border near Venlo had a RCAOC Ammunition Sub-Depot which was outloaded to a new Canadian Depot [cannot remember the location] by end of 1972. The Canock detachment lived in block 4 of Walthem Barracks and ate with the RAOC lads. I think only the officers lived out? as it was not a 'posting'

I helped in-load NATO sponsored artillary ammunition [155mm, 175mm & 8" (203mm) HE Shells] into a collection of MESH's in 1975 which still had Maple Leafs stencilled on the door frames. Some of the 155mm shells still had American 'Hands Across The Ocean' stickers on them from the early 1950's

Other sheds were still full of WWII 25Pdr and 5.5" Howitzer Shells!

Mike_2817 wrote:

3 Base Ammunition & Petroleum Depot (3 BAPD) at Bracht on the Dutch Border near Venlo had a RCAOC Ammunition Sub-Depot which was outloaded to a new Canadian Depot [cannot remember the location] by end of 1972. The Canock detachment lived in block 4 of Walthem Barracks and ate with the RAOC lads. I think only the officers lived out? as it was not a 'posting'

I helped in-load NATO sponsored artillary ammunition [155mm, 175mm & 8" (203mm) HE Shells] into a collection of MESH's in 1975 which still had Maple Leafs stencilled on the door frames. Some of the 155mm shells still had American 'Hands Across The Ocean' stickers on them from the early 1950's

Other sheds were still full of WWII 25Pdr and 5.5" Howitzer Shells!

Mike, Mike: Canuck not Canok. Next you'll be calling us plastic yanks.

Other sheds were still full of WWII 25Pdr and 5.5" Howitzer Shells! Show's how the military doesn't let go of anything, especialy things that go bang.

Thats told me then....

Well I try! Did not have much contact with you to be honest

A lot of the old stuff was either sold off with the guns or deep sea dumped in the late 70's & 80's But still saw old stock in Germany and in UK Depots for all the years of my service 1968-1993

I am good friends with the Director of the RCOC Museum in Montréal,

This is slightly off beam, but when they were closing part of the depot at Didcot in the mid 60s there were sheds with first WW horse shoes and tent pegs.

In the 70s at Yardley Chase they were still repacking RDX and other HE from WW2. The mice had eaten into the boxes. I wonder what happened to all that stuff

I don't know about the WWII stuff but as Hardrations points out, the Army doesn't let go of anything that goes bang. I do know, however, that all the stuff the Canadians had 'up north' prior to the move to Lahr (another brilliant decision by DND!!!) was either packed and sent down there or attempted to be sold to you guys, but your powers-that-be didn't want it, or at least not at the excellent price that was being asked for it, so much of it ended up as kindling, sad to say.

Munitions and such no doubt got sent to Lahr and Baden-Baden or maybe some of it ended up with German military. If it did, wouldn't that be a dictionary definition of "ironic?"

As far as I know all the Canadian ammuntion was moved to a new [maybe not in build] depot near Lahr. By the early 70's the British used 120mm Tank and the Canadians & Americans 105mm Tank. So much for NATO compatability! but most of everything else was still the same.

It took the British the best part of 25 years to sort out it's WWII stocks, and also handle the run down of depots both in the UK & BAOR and some ammuntion stocks were moved more than once before being sent to the bottom of the Atlantic.

Another push came in the early 90's with BAOR rundown and rationlisation. A lot of BAOR 'War stock' was used during the first Gulf war and never replaced!

This rationlisation must have happened to all NATO Nations, with a changing role in the 90's & 2000's

Mike- Your mention of "NATO compatibility" brought a smile to my aged face as does the mention of "NATO Forces".

As a soldier you were obviously nearer to the real military world than I was. But I had a little insight into NATO by attending meetings on POL matters in NATO HQ Brussels.

It was a great privilege but as for compatibility-forget it! The Brits went their way, the Yanks another, and as for the French-well! Don't get me wrong, all great guys doing the best for their nation but compatibility, I do'nt think so.

Now-somebody prove me wrong

I have to agree with you Alan.

STANAGS is one thing, but Petrol is Petrol, and France did not play with the rest of NATO that much anyway.

At the end of the day a 7.62x51mm rimless round fired out of all rifles, and yet again the Yanks adopted the 5.56x45mm round forcing it to be the 2nd standard! Of course the UK now use this round in the SA80 Weapon System, as do all other countries in NATO, even Poland!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

Many examples exist, and in Afghanistan today Canadian Ammunition is being used by British Forces, not because it is 'NATO Standard' which it is, but because they have the capacity to supply it. Particular .50" HMG ammo.

Growing up army is, of course, a totally different breed of cat than being army so I wasn't that aware of the munitions end of things at all. But having said that, somewhere along the way I did manage to pick up the disparity between "NATO compatibility" and the reality of that (probably through dinner conversations with my dad who was Ordnance Corp after all and so "into" all that sort of thing...he supplied it all,so he knew).

I do remember him going on about stuff re the Americans, even though we weren't that close to the American zone down around Frankfurt etc. We did have a small American missile detachment at Soest, however. They had little, if anything, to do with us on the supply end of things; everything they got was "American".

I did hear about the French military's penchant for "going their own way" and the attendant lack of respect from other "NATO Forces" for doing so. Not that the French would care....LOL

Sort of the same thing with the Belgiques (Belgians)...they were kicking around as part of NATO as well but there was virtually zero interaction between them and us even though their Married Quarters were often close to our own. In Soest, for instance, there were Belgique Married Quarters right across Hiddingser Weg from the Canadian PMQs, as close to us as any of the other Canadian PMQs would be to each other, and yet none of us kids ever interacted with Belgique kids, none of the soldiers interacted with ours, and certainly none of the families did. The only interaction was you'd periodically see Belgique families shopping at the CANEX store and over on the other side of the Soest PMQs, across Arnsberger Strasse, was the Belgique Officer's Club that occasionally hosted bi-national events but I don't recall our going to any.

Some of the Francophone families or members of French/Quebecois regiments did because there was a linguistic link there (by and large. Belgium deals with the issues of bilingualism between Walloon (French) and Flemish all the time, much as Canada, especially Eastern Canada, does between Francophone and Anglophone).

Much of if not all. Canadian Wartime ammunition was still stored up north after we moved down to Lahr. I found this out after the Yom Kipper war. The IDF were running short of ammo so the Yanks supplied them with stocks from Germany. Our training ammo was stored under yank control, so our ammo ended up going to the IDF. How'd I find this out? Well I was with HQ's & Sigs 4 CMBG and on asking why our live firing training was delayed, was informed of the reasons above. They were getting ammunition from our war time stock from up north in the BOAR area. I was also informed that technically we were still part of BOAR. I know we still drove on a BOAR drivers license. All so we were still allotted training time on the ranges in the BOAR. The yanks would only give the tanks and arty night times to fire. So the guns and tanks were trained up north to get day time firing times. Go figure. If old King Pierre could find a way to jerk the Canadian Forces around, he did.

When I was stationed at CAD Kineton in the UK we used to train IDF Officers at the Army School of Ammunition and held stocks of 105mm Tank and other natures on 'option for sale' to the IDF.

This was refurbished Centurion Tank stock since we had flogged them the tanks when the Chieftain Mark 1 came into service.

We also held stocks for Arab nations as well! so would have a frantic weekend getting the school ready if it was a hot changeover from one nation to one they were not so friendly with.

Canadian ATO's are still trained at Kineton by the way.

One of my best detachments was to BATUS where we had a training area the size of Wales...