Canadians and the BAOR

Mike-Did you have any connections with Yardley Chase when you were at Kineton?

Knew of it Alan, but never visited! It was a Ministry of Supply Ammunition Depot for storing finished goods from the 'Royal Ordnance Factories' and was civil manned.

Area is now an Army Training Area for the ACF/ATC/TA

Ref some of the above post.My father was R.Es 26 Field Eng Regt(43 Field park Sqd) in Gordon Bks in Hameln from 1952 -1954.I was there with my mother & sisters 'We lived outsie the camp(about 10 mins walkaway)Although I was at Boarding School K.A.S. Plon I remeber it all well.My father was then Chief/Clerk of the Sqd .S/Sgt A.J.Walker.I often meet him at his office after work & we would go to The WOs & Sgts Mess where he would have a game of snooker (& a pint or two)I a glass of qrange or what ever,Now heres my point,He had at least two good Canadian Sgt mates( one I know was called Monty) who even use to come to our home for Sunday lunch.(Good old Mum) Bless her.They were stationed in Goron Bks of that Im sure..Hope this helps.As a matter of interest we were the first ever family(thats with childred as I think there were the odd couples befor us) to arrive in BAOR(Nov 6th 1946) Went to Beilefeld then onto Bad Oeneyhasen and then to Hameln.Loved every min of it.Been back there as a soldier myself and go back even now on a reg basis.
Sorry went on a bit
Regards John.

On the initial move from Soest to Lahr,all the ammunition was moved out from unit ammo stores and Bracht to Lahr/Baden Soelingen and and an American storage area somewhere near Kaiserslautern,the name of which escapes me.I was given the job of planning the move and worked on info supplied by our ATO Capt Doug Morley,it was complicated because of all the different classes and compatabilities,but we managed to do it properly first time.That was asuming that we would be using American training areas,but one visit to Grafenwoehr in Jan 71 and then Vilseck in the summer soon cured that idea,they were crap.By that time I was with 4 SVC Bn so experienced them first hand.After about fifteen months I got posted back to the Base Movements office,and all serious shooting was done back in the Rhine Army area,so it could well be that some provision was made to have stocks in the North again.We missed having the support of Brit Movement Control,had to supervise the loading of tanks and guns in Lahr,and then send someone all the way up there to receive them,then do it all in reverse to come back,the only advantage was that our travel allowances were quite good and you always finished up with some left over, even after paying for the beer.

4 SVC Bn rings a bell for me!

It's been so many years now,and my dad is long gone (having died in 1980, shortly after he retired and took a job with a computer company) so I can't even fact-check with him, that I can't recall specifics of the period of the Close-out, even though it was a key time in my life and certainly in the life of Canadian troops in W. Germany.

As I mentioned earlier, I was not at all aware of the munitions end of things or what happened/didn't happen to it all. I suppose, looking back, Dad specifically didn't talk about that as it'd be an "issue of security" or some such.

I do recall, especially when we were still living in Soest (1970-71) of Canadian soldiers going back and forth between the old Brigade Area and Lahr/Baden Soelingen picking up and delivering 'stuff' down to the Black Forest region. Many of them, of course, had been stationed in the Hemer/Werl/Soest area (some married some single guys) and were now living down in Lahr so these trips were sort of "coming home" type things and they'd take time to pop into some of their old haunts (most notably Paddy's Bar aka The Milk Bar along Kanadischer Weg in Soest PMQs).

Other than that loose social connection, however, I (as a 17-year old) didn't have much to do with them...they weren't "Soesters" anymore for one thing....

Plus, of course, these guys would, as I think of it now, be out at Fort York and Fort Henry (and possibly the old forts down in Iserlohn/Hemer/Werl, but I think those were pretty much 'done' by then) and Forts Anne and St. Louis in Werl clearing stuff out for transport down to Lahr and not around all that much.

Tony: If you were in charge of planning the move on that end of things and worked with Capt. Doug Morley (name sounds somewhat familiar, although he was not one of the three guys my Dad was part of as they worked out of Wetter in 71-72) you probably had some dealings with WO Victor Lock, my dad.

The other fellow out in Wetter was WO Ken Gourlay Sr. and the 3rd fellow was a Sgt (?) whose name I forget...Ken Gourlay and his wife Anna later lived, and retired, down in Lahr. Their son Ken Jr. and daughter, Gloria, were very well known in both Soest and in Lahr.

In fact, Gloria was something of a "personality" in that she often strode around in tight suede and shiny biker leather outfits, sporting a huge silver disk necklace. She painted many of the murals in the CYC (Canadian Youth Club) in Lahr. Ken Jr. was a DJ for all the dances, both in Soest and in Lahr and worked on base as a warehouseman or something.

My transport pln was sent to Soest May-June 1971 to clear up all the odds and ends left in the various Forts,I unfortuneately was on a Chief Transportation Controller's course at Camp Borden and missed all the fun .
I knew Ken Gourlay,Gloria worked in our building,her dress did not reflect her personality,she looked brash but was very quiet and polite. Ken Jnr's claim to fame was that he did a streak through the Kaserne at lunchtime one day and made his getaway on the back of a motorbike. There was another son who turned up out of the blue driving a Lamborghini coupe, he slummed around Lahr for a while and then moved on,last I heard of him was under arrest at Heathrow charged with something like a bomb hoax.
I didn't know your dad,Wetter was not on the same planet as us,populated by clever RCEME people.

You're quite right about Gloria....she actually was very sweet and just a nice girl but those outfits!!!! Oy.... :-) But that was "just Gloria."

Not surprised at Ken Jr. streaking...he was quite the character too. When was that, btw? My claim to fame was similar in that I streaked through the Soest NAAFI in 73 and even got a write up in the NAAFI newsletter...of course, they didn't know 'who' it was!

The other son was older and lived in Majorica or someplace, involved in real estate and such. Lots of money -- or claimed to have lots of money. Hadn't heard about the bomb hoax though. Yikes!!!

Dad's sojourn at Wetter was post-Canadian Brigade, 1972 I believe. Not sure why they were in Wetter, to be honest, but yeah, I seem to recall it was because, or in spite of ???, REME types being out there (not RCEME by his time there...they'd all left for Lahr or Canada by then).

As a boy, my Father was stationed at Dortmund, I was in BMH Iserlohn for a while, I recollect there were Canadian Army Nurses stationed there in addition to British staff.

I remember the Nurses being nice, feeding me Furguzade - Canadian Lucozade right?

Beachley Boy wrote:

As a boy, my Father was stationed at Dortmund, I was in BMH Iserlohn for a while, I recollect there were Canadian Army Nurses stationed there in addition to British staff.

I remember the Nurses being nice, feeding me Furguzade - Canadian Lucozade right?

Yes, 'C' wing at BMH Iserlohn was staffed by RCAMC personell (our nursing sisters were medical corps, we had no QARANC equivilant).

Never heard of that stuff, but they sell Lucozade here as well. Maybe it was an inside joke.

I know of one Canadian still in the old 4 CIBG area (he's in Deilinghofen since 66) are there still any more that one knows about? I'm not worried about the Lahr area, loads of them down there.

Me again, I mentioned Furguzade as being a Canadian drink served in BMH. Now find out it was a rival for Lucozade and hailed from Scotland. No longer made apparently. Sorry for confusion.

Hardrations wrote:

I know of one Canadian still in the old 4 CIBG area (he's in Deilinghofen since 66) are there still any more that one knows about? I'm not worried about the Lahr area, loads of them down there.

I knew of two people who stayed on: Fred Bradford who I last saw as a civvy driver at Brigade HQ, and Bob Porteus who may have settled in the Deilinghofen area. I think Fred lives in the Korbeke area, but I'm not sure about Bob. We all went through RCASC Soldier Apprentices in 1955. The last I heard about 10 years ago was that they were still there. I'll see if I can find the old association nominal role.

I had my Appendix removed in C Wing BMH Iserlohn in 1966. I well remember the fragrant Canadian Sisters and Nurses, they lived in a world far removed from mine, pity! aahhhh, memories!!

recce83 wrote:

Hardrations wrote:

I know of one Canadian still in the old 4 CIBG area (he's in Deilinghofen since 66) are there still any more that one knows about? I'm not worried about the Lahr area, loads of them down there.

I knew of two people who stayed on: Fred Bradford who I last saw as a civvy driver at Brigade HQ, and Bob Porteus who may have settled in the Deilinghofen area. I think Fred lives in the Korbeke area, but I'm not sure about Bob. We all went through RCASC Soldier Apprentices in 1955. The last I heard about 10 years ago was that they were still there. I'll see if I can find the old association nominal role.

Just had a quick look at the latest RCASC list and Bob Porteus is in Geseke NRW GERMANY. I can send you his e--mail if you want recce.

Couldn't find anything on Fred.

Thanks, Hardrations, that would be great.

Cheers

Canadian Engineers at Hameln (Hamelin)

Hameln has closed but veterans and civilians have produced a commemoration website - which notes the earlier departure of 58 Ind Fd Sqn CRE

http://british-army-in-hameln.com/02-11-1953-58-ind-fd-sqn-royal-canadian-engineers-leaving-hameln/

JPW wrote:

Len, Bob

Good to hear from you both

Matters Canadian are indeed somewhat quiet whilst Steve digests another source of information regarding 2nd Corps in Summer 1945

Not wishing to “blow trumpets too hard” but after researching 1/8/12/30 (British) Corps post VE day 8 May 45 with documentation purchased from Kew, very pleased finding 2 Canadian Corps documentation online, very clear and has proved valuable to JPW and my research, as many British units were under command, including the famous Iron Division (3 Inf Div) who were sent to 1 (British) Corps just before VE day on 6 May 45 for occupational duties in the Osnabrück area, have now decided to record Canadian units as very much part of BAOR

My point for this post, what was “209 FMC Report Centre” have a British record of “Control Centre Forward Maintenance Area” a RASC unit, also found “2 MAC” a RCASC unit…was that “Maintenance Area Centre?”

Help would be appreciated

steve wrote:

My point for this post, what was “209 FMC Report Centre” have a British record of “Control Centre Forward Maintenance Area” a RASC unit, also found “2 MAC” a RCASC unit…was that “Maintenance Area Centre?”

Steve,

MAC, in Canadian nomenclature, stands for Medical Ambulance Company, which was an RCASC unit.

Are you also asking about 209 FMC Report Centre and Control Centre Forward Maintenance Area in a Canadian context?

Cheers,
Dan.

Thanks Dan

209 FMC Report Centre is listed as 2 Canadian Corps Troops not Control Centre Forward Maintenance Area this was 1 (British) Corps District the closest I could find

Dan

Good to have you drop by

Sadly not withstanding the tremendous contribution made by you and other Canada based contributors, looks as if I have hit the buffers regarding officially sponsored Barrack names

1. Now realise Headquarters 2 Canadian Corps/ 2 Canadian Infantry Division and 3 Canadian Infantry Division in Bad Zwischenahn and Headquarters 2/9 Infantry Brigade in the Varel area were in requisitioned municipal buildings and therefore not named though the Canadian Militia styling of Fort xxx could have been an option.

2. Still surprised that the former Naval Headquarters Barracks at Sengwarden outside Wilhelmshaven although named by the Royal Navy appears was not to have been officially named by Headquarters 2/8 Brigade.

3. Not forgotten my earlier gaffe regarding Andrew MacNaughton but surprised that the highly respected Guy Simmonds was not similarly honoured. Steve and I are still trying to sort out the contradictions in the British sponsored naming of Crerrar Barracks in Oldenburg.

The only way ahead appears for me to go through the individual war diaries now available on line and pick up some more unauthorised namings such as Niagara Camp by the Lincoln and Welland and Muskox by the North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiments. This will take time and my priority is to try and sort out similar antics by the Royal Navy and British 8th Corps in Schleswig Hostein (delete Wilhemshaven, insert Schleswig)

Hi JP,

You have to remember that there was a lot of dirty politics at the higher level of command in the Canadian Army in WW 2. Guy Simmonds was a good General but not really appreciated. I read in a biography that he had looked into transferring to the British Army after the war. Field Marshal Montgomery thought highly of him.

Hardrations wrote:

You have to remember that there was a lot of dirty politics at the higher level of command in the Canadian Army in WW 2.

Too true.

One thing about the three Canadian GOCs still standing at the end of the war (Crerar, Simonds, and Foulkes) was that they hated each other.  All three were completely without personality, even if they might have been the most competent to emerge from all of the infighting that went on.

Crerar, who led the First Canadian Army to victory, only got the position by stabbing his predecessor (Andy McNaughton) in the back in true Shakespearean fashion.  He (Crerar) was too old, by Monty's standards, for active service (but then again, Monty was too old by his own standards for active service).  Monty didn't think Crerar or McNaughton was fit or competent enough for Army command.  While he liked Simonds, he knew Simonds didn't have the experience for it.  Overall the British Army would have preferred a British General command Canada's Army, but that would have been politically untenable for the Canadian government.

The Major-Generals weren't much better. It seems to be that to become a successful war commander one had to be an ass, a loner, devoid of all compassion, and totally indifferent to the opinion or advice of others. There were exceptions, like Hoffmeister or Foster, but not many.

Cheers,
Dan.

JPW wrote:

Not forgotten my earlier gaffe regarding Andrew MacNaughton but surprised that the highly respected Guy Simmonds was not similarly honoured.

McNaughton, although he would not have been an effective Army commander, was loved by his troops.  He was a very popular General officer.  Simonds was not.

JPW wrote:

Steve and I are still trying to sort out the contradictions in the British sponsored naming of Crerrar Barracks in Oldenburg.

If the British Army hadn't named a barracks after Crerar, nobody would have.  Especially anyone in the Canadian Army.  It was known what he did to McNaughton to become the Army commander.

There was a Currie Barracks in Calgary.  Currie was the Commander of the Canadian Corps in the Great War.  No barracks, or other military institution, has been named after Crerar, Simonds or Foulkes.

Cheers,
Dan.

Simonds got screwed over after the war also. He would have been an ideal CIC Army if given half a chance.

Dan, Hardrations

Many thanks for your customary robust, forthright comments-very interesting