Canadian Inheritance

Non taken, and no need to apologise.

My mate married a german girl from Mohnesee and he lived there when he left the Army but unfortunately it seems he moved and we lost touch. If anyone knows what happened to John and Frederika Wilford und sein familie please get in touch !!

HarryB wrote:

...I loved Soest, it was one of the best postings I'd ever been on. After Osnabruck, it was like Butlins. Excellent barracks accomodation (thanks Canucks). Excellent pub facilities down in Lohne at the Sonnenuhr and Die Ecke. I even managed a German girlfriend or two during my posting and had loads of German friends through the football with the local villages. Very happy memories !

Glad you found the barrack accomodations comfortable, HarryB. The barracks out by Bad Sassendorf (those you would know as Salamanca and whatever the other site was named) always struck me as a bit isolated, although of course Soest wasn't that far to go to if one had a car or a buddy who had one.

As a Canadian dependent (I was a teenager while living in Soest and, I agree, the town is great. It's remained in my heart for all these years and I still miss it terribly sometimes) I never made it out to Lohne and the gasthofs out there but I sure made it down to the various ones in Soest itself.

What we called Isenbeck's (actually Zum Linden), across from what was then the Belgian barracks on Hiddingser Weg, just about a block or so north of the B-1. On the other side of the B-1, towards the Married Quarters, was Arens, a gastaette rather than a gasthof (which, if I understand it correctly, is a slightly higher level/posher pub than a simple gasthof, often combining a restaurant). We'd go there sometimes as well, but "Isenbeck's" was by far "the" place to go for the Canadian teens (who were all well below the legal Canadian drinking age of, then, 21!!).

We even had our own little 'Canada Corner' that when I returned in 1973 still had names and other graffitti carved into the old wood table and written on the wall-papered walls (little vandals that we were ).

The Black Raven (Schwartzen Raben) in behind St. Pauli Church was popular too, although a bit of a dive. Up the street from that was the Palette, a gasthof/disco of sorts. A very small dance floor but one of my favourite haunts, especially after I returned in '73 (spent almost every night in there!!).

There was a place we used to call The Cozy Bar way down by the Burghof Museum in the centre of Soest, a bit east of the Cathedral. I have no idea what the actual name of it was.

I sometimes used to go to The Express, I think it was called, when I lived there with my parents. it was, as I recall, over on OsthofentorStrasse, but I could be quite wrong about that. At the time it was bit of a student/hippy hangout but okay. It later changed management and clientele and was renamed.

Up by the Bahnhof was a wonderful disco that focused on R&B and Soul music. Some of the American stationed at a small missle/radar base just outside Soest (and I have no idea where!!) hung out there. There weren't a lot of Americans stationed at Soest at all, it was just a small detachment and maybe a half dozen families, if that.

Just found this Forum, all very interesting. I spent 7 years of my Army career in Soest in 3 dieffernt units, being 3 Armd Div HQ & Sig Regt, 3 Armd Div Ord Coy (later 42 Ord) and last but not least 5 Armd Wksp REME (my last posting).
I am still living very near in Erwitte which is about 15KM East on the B1, so I go past both of the barracks, Salamanca and St Sebastion on a regular basis, when out on my motorbike.

Shep wrote:

Just found this Forum, all very interesting. I spent 7 years of my Army career in Soest in 3 dieffernt units, being 3 Armd Div HQ & Sig Regt, 3 Armd Div Ord Coy (later 42 Ord) and last but not least 5 Armd Wksp REME (my last posting).
I am still living very near in Erwitte which is about 15KM East on the B1, so I go past both of the barracks, Salamanca and St Sebastion on a regular basis, when out on my motorbike.

Shep,

Welcome to the Forum, we hope you enjoy your visits here.

Any details of units, barracks, dates, stories you may be willing to share will be most welcome.

I spent a time "down the road a bit" in Deilinghofen in the early 70's, and passed through Soest quite often in that time.

Paul.

Shep wrote:

Just found this Forum, all very interesting. I spent 7 years of my Army career in Soest in 3 dieffernt units, being 3 Armd Div HQ & Sig Regt, 3 Armd Div Ord Coy (later 42 Ord) and last but not least 5 Armd Wksp REME (my last posting).
I am still living very near in Erwitte which is about 15KM East on the B1, so I go past both of the barracks, Salamanca and St Sebastion on a regular basis, when out on my motorbike.

Oh, how I envy you still living there. I am familiar with Erwitte. Picturesque little village and still within hailing distance of Soest.

HarryB wrote:

I was a member 660 AAC in 1972 based at Salamanca, home of the AA Light Air Defence Regiment RA.

That was 16 Light Air Defence Regt , they had either Bofors or Oerlikon guns that were obselete and I think they left to train with some missile systems

Fort Henry

1 Fd Det Bks
1955 - 70 4 Signal Sqn RC Corps of Signals

in 1970 handed over to BAOR and became

San Sebastian Barracks and Bottom Camp Soest

Fort York had been home to Royal Canadian Regiment

handed over to Bundeswehr Fliegerabwehrraketengruppe 21 in Aug 1970

Barracks renamed Graf Yorck Kaserne in 1973

Don't know how I missed out on this article.

Fort York had the RCR and Cdn. Guards rotating through it. I was there for a few nights in 72 when we came up for a Shooting Competition from Lahr. Many locals on seeing our Canadian Forces V.W. bus thought we were an advance party and coming back, they missed us apparently. My first tour though was in Deilinghofen 64-68 in Fort Prince of Wales. Have been back a number of times. Many changes and absolutely no military in the Hemer/Iserlolhn area at all.

Hardrations wrote:

Don't know how I missed out on this article.

Fort York had the RCR and Cdn. Guards rotating through it. I was there for a few nights in 72 when we came up for a Shooting Competition from Lahr. Many locals on seeing our Canadian Forces V.W. bus thought we were an advance party and coming back, they missed us apparently. My first tour though was in Deilinghofen 64-68 in Fort Prince of Wales. Have been back a number of times. Many changes and absolutely no military in the Hemer/Iserlolhn area at all.

So glad you've been able to make it back to the old stomping grounds a few times Hardrations....even after all these years, I miss it terribly some days. But then I also think going back and seeing the old places with everyone gone would be bittersweet as well.

No doubt many of the locals did, in fact, miss not only the Canadians when we all pulled out (bad decision IMHO) but also the British when they all left as well. Of course, the locals liked us better!!! Na nana na na.... LOL

I am on Flickr and have sort of ongoing/online correspondence going with a couple of the folks who post pics to the site who are from the Hemer/Iserlohn and Soest areas. One still lives in Hemer although she is of the generation after Canadians so my memories are reminiscent of what her parents would tell her! Gawd....talk about feeling one's age!!!!

Deilinghofen, I take it, hasn't changed a great deal. Got a bit bigger maybe. The barracks there have all been converted to light industrial use and, I have it in the back of my head somewhere, were also used as temporary housing for "easties".

The old PMQs in Hemer now have a dreadful reputation amongst Hemerites as so many ethnically German but Russian immigrants moved in and the place degenerated into, essentially, a crime-ridden ghetto. Such a shame as while the Hemer PMQs, when compared to those in Soest, were a bit shabby and the grass was always patchy, there were parts of them that people took pride in.

I suspect those living in both the old Hemer PMQs and the Soest ones have no idea of the history attached to them...nor particularly care! At least in Soest the old Canadian names for the streets (Kanadischer Weg, St. Lorenz Weg (St. Lawrence) etc) have been kept, giving some sense of history/continuity. The street within the Hemer PMQs were all German (Berliner Strasse and such).

While I have never regretted returning to Soest in the early 70's -- in fact, glad I did because if I hadn't I would have regretted that -- I do regret never returning after that, although I always intended to. In some way, I'd love to go back and see how it is and in others I really don't want to. I am not big on change anyway and to see all the changes. Well....I think I'd find it far too upsetting.

Nice to see you're still around Stephen.

Deilinghofen has be absorbed in Hemer. Fort Prince of Wales is fairly well gone. Just the chapel (sheet metal shop) the M.T. buildings, the building that held the post office, barber shop, pay office, Q.M. building and the two brick Quonset huts that held our rocket motors (Honest John). Fort McLeod has most of the it's buildings left. Friend of mine in Deilinghofen tells me that there is an influx of Syrian, Iraqi, etc in Fort McLeod, which has increased the local crime level. I never really knew Soest just up there on the odd jaunt. The big thing I noticed in Germany is the Turks, freaken, freaken , Turks every where. Even in my wife's little out of the way village. Neighbour of ours is a lady from Hemer (husband PPCLI) and was back last year. She was definitely not impressed. So things change and ya can't go back home, it's never the same. Still though wonderful people and wonderful memories to have known.

Some of you may be interested that the Canadian Army Library has released and continues to release their 10 minute weekly newsreels to Youtube   eg  from 1945 (released in the past 3 days):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w0N-S_MJQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MozcX8p54v8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z1s7svmUDY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPpfCDJPUyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXXHuiNnj0M    aurich

Hey Pborn, that first one shows Tommy Prince a Canadian native from this area of Manitoba. He went back in for Korea and was PPCLI. My son-in-law is a relative of his. It's a sad story for old Tommy, booze got the best of him. He is well remembered and honoured here in Winnipeg. Thanks for the site.

Hardrations wrote:

Nice to see you're still around Stephen.

Deilinghofen has be absorbed in Hemer. Fort Prince of Wales is fairly well gone. Just the chapel (sheet metal shop) the M.T. buildings, the building that held the post office, barber shop, pay office, Q.M. building and the two brick Quonset huts that held our rocket motors (Honest John). Fort McLeod has most of the it's buildings left. Friend of mine in Deilinghofen tells me that there is an influx of Syrian, Iraqi, etc in Fort McLeod, which has increased the local crime level. I never really knew Soest just up there on the odd jaunt. The big thing I noticed in Germany is the Turks, freaken, freaken , Turks every where. Even in my wife's little out of the way village. Neighbour of ours is a lady from Hemer (husband PPCLI) and was back last year. She was definitely not impressed. So things change and ya can't go back home, it's never the same. Still though wonderful people and wonderful memories to have known.

Yes....still around. Just haven't been checking out the site as often as I once did.

I am rather surprised to learn that Deilinghofen has had such an influx of Syrian, Iraqi, etc. Iserlohn or some of the larger industrial-based cities I could see (opportunities etc), but a sleepy little dorf like Deilinghofen?? Even with the camp there? yeah, that's a tad surprising.

As for the number of Turkish....even back in the 70's there was a large number of Turks being brought in as gastarbeiters, along with Northern Italians, and folks from what was then Yugoslavia (Serbia Croatia) and some Rumanians. Basically, people from the Balkans I suppose.

Those gastarbeiters never really fully assimilated into German society, even then. Part of that was their own reluctance to adopt the social mores and such of their 'new' country and many -- but not all -- of them were only there for a few years anyway before returning home. The other part was the reluctance of local German populations to accept these "auslanders" as German...they just weren't and that was that.

Don't get me wrong; I am a major Teutophile and really have very little negatives to say about Germans but I'm not blind or naïve either and there is definitely a....I don't know....core social mindset in Germany that is quite xenophobic.

I don't think it is so much they are anti-foreigner (whoever the foreigner may be) as they are focused on their own culture, their own ethnicity, history, what-have-you. Not so unlike the experience in many parts of Britain (England especially) that has seen a massive influx of non-Britons in recent decades who have no sense or attachment to the thousands of years of history and culture that makes Britain "British" and, in fact, gradually alter the whole culture. I know many on here see that and have commented on it.

What happens, then, is you have an entire population within the dominant culture that is disenfranchised and always The Outsider. Compounding that is that many of the gastarbeiters who came to Germany in the 70's ended up staying, marrying (or bring the wife from Turkey or wherever), and starting families. Of course they did! So now you have the next generation of non-German Germans, born and raised in Germany but not seen as "German" at all. Actually, two generations now I guess. The offspring of the 1970's gastarbeiter and the grandchildren. Can't get good jobs, are viewed with suspicion, perhaps (or rather, quite likely) discriminated against because of their obvious ethnicity, and with the growth of radical Islamism viewed with even greater suspicion, which in turn leads many young Turks, Serbs, whatever to react to that and instead of trying to assimilate harder, give it up as pointless, and turn inward to their own communities, and in some instances seeking solace in their religion and susceptible to radicalized influences.

This is not...and I can't state that strongly enough!...to excuse radicalization or 'explain it away'. I deplore Islamism. They're animals!! And as bigoted in their own right as an individual who refuses to accept them as "German" in the very country they were born in and grew up in. And yet I understand the frustration 2nd and 3rd generation German Turks etc must feel. They must feel blocked every step of the way. Socially, economically, politically, professionally. Pushed into 'housing projects' that are sterile and just really crummy places to be with no hope of ever having a nice apartment/home like everyone else. That sort of stuff gnaws at you, day in and day out. It builds resentment and anger and frustration and...and...and....

Some resort to crime. Serbian mafia and all that. Others resort to Islamism or some other radical political expression.

In a nutshell Stephen - good post.
Len

Thanks, Len.

Even as a teenager back in the 70's, and especially when I returned to Germany in '73/'74 to work (a menial job on a construction site where I was off on my own for 10 hours a day, scraping dried concrete off the wood forms used to mold pillars and pulling the nails out of them only to be met the next morning with the same damn pile of encrusted wood and nails!!), I picked up on the ramifications of importing huge numbers of foreign workers into the country. How do you deal with them, their cultural beliefs, their ways of doing things? I suspected -- and was right! -- it'd turn out to be a mess.

Being construction, several of the workers on site were, in fact, immigrant workers (i.e. gastarbeiter or "guest workers") although not as many as in some other trades around town.

Not being a part of the dominant German crowd of workers I think I was able to objectively observe the dynamics and interactions. Absolutely there was a patronizing manner on the part of the German workers towards these "others" (on my team was a young guy from Northern Italy who was quite personable and apparently well-liked but even then....as well as a Yugoslav and some of the other teams had Turks). But what really hit home for me and, in effect, "opened my eyes" was the attitude towards me.

As the son of Canadian Army stationed via NATO in what was then West Germany I had, in fact, enjoyed a certain amount of privilege and status although I was unaware of it at the time. As Canadians, we were often sought out, approached in gasthofs and engaged in conversation (and the exchanging of cigarettes) and generally treated quite well and with respect (not of the kow-towing, cap-in-hand type, I hasten to add, but as people the Germans "liked"). We established friendships with the families from whom we rented accommodation out on 'the economy', some of which lasted for years even after returning to Canada. It was good.

As someone who returned to work at a menial job I was acutely aware that status had changed. Not amongst those with whom I had previously established relationships during my time there as 'the son of'; those were friends. But certainly with those I now worked with, co-workers as well as the Polier (Project Manager or Foreman I suppose....the guy in charge of the whole site), there was a definite difference in how they dealt with me. To them, I wasn't "the son of Canadian Army" -- we'd all left the area so that was no longer a consideration -- I was merely "some kid who came back" at best and little more than just another foreign worker at worst.

When I returned to Germany in 1973 I fully intended on staying. That was the plan. My plan -- my parents were not at all aware of what I was intending. I did not want to return to Canada. I really saw myself as remaining in Germany and building a life there. That didn't pan out, obviously!

Not only did I become increaslying aware of the situation of your average gastarbeiter but I also remember running into a former VanDoo (Royal 22nd Regiment, which is all French-Canadian) in the Milch Bar located in the Soest Married Quarters who had married a German girl, got out of the Army, and was -- by the time I met him -- probably in his 40's.

His German was not good (not that mine was, but I had a high vocabulary level. The grammar just sucked! LOL However, at the age of 20 and 21, my mixing up of pronouns and such was obviously seen as 'kind of cute' and I got away with it), he was stuck in a more menial job than I was -- a street cleaner or cobblestone layer or some such -- his marriage wasn't very good anymore, and he was completely beaten down. He wasn't Quebecois anymore. He wasn't Canadian anymore. And he would never be seen as German or as truly 'belonging'. He was, in every sense of the word, outside. He wasn't even really accepted by his in-laws, for crying out loud!

In the maybe half-hour I spoke with him over a beer, I saw my future. He was me in 20 years!! That wasn't going to work for me, either!

So, yeah, I think perhaps I do have a certain amount of understanding/insight into the socio-political situation faced by Turks etc. in Germany. They don't have a sense of belonging and they don't belong. Yes, those born and raised there should belong -- it is, after all, "their" country as much as it is the 100th generation German kid next door's country, but it's not quite their country and never will be.

Well said Stephen.

I have a friend (former man in my det.) who has remained in Germany and has done well. His first wife (died of cancer) was very supportive for him, his in-laws found it difficult (the daughter was the only child) but still he has done well. Hopefully we'll be visiting with him this fall. Funny though, he talks his English now with a German accent and my wife says his accent in German is Canadian.

That's funny....German-accented English and Canadian-accented German. Of course, being Canadian I don't know what "Canadian-accented German" sounds like. Normal to me! LOL

I do remember, however, when I was due to return to Canada after 14 months working in Soest and was down in Lahr waiting for a flight out I took the opportunity to hitch-hike over to Strasbourg, France. I'd always wanted to visit Paris when we lived there but my mother was not very pro-French at all and had no desire to visit France (she was fine with everywhere else. Not sure what the issue was with French). I thought I might get a chance when I was there on my own, but that didn't happen either. So Strasbourg was the next best thing!

A local Schwartzwalder picked me up and we engaged in conversation. Now, my German was -- if I say so myself -- pretty good (apart from the Das, Die, Der pronouns which I constantly mixed up) but I found him very difficult to understand. The reason being his German was Black Forest German, more Bavarian than anything, whereas my German was Westphalian...and a Canadian accent on top of that, I suppose. With a bit of working class Brit and Irish twang thrown in.

He immediately identified me as Canadian, because of not just the accent but the 'style' of German I was speaking. All the Canadians who spoke German spoke Westfalen Deutsch. For such a relatively small country I never heard so many different dialects! It seems the smaller the country, the more dialects one hears. It is not as noticeable in countries like Canada and the US. Someone from Alberta sounds pretty much the same as someone from British Columbia or Saskatchewan or even parts of Ontario, although there are 'pockets' of dialect in Ontario. By the time one hits the Maritimes, to say nothing of Newfoundland, one starts hearing different dialects and one can, if you're 'up' on such things, pretty much identify which region of Ontario/New Brunswick/Nova Scotia/Prince Edward Island/Newfoundland-Labrador that person hails from.

My best friend from my time in Soest, a German kid, learned his English (and quite quickly too!) from the Canadians and his idioms, phrasing and such were all 'Canadian'. We were all gone within 2 years however and so he latched onto the British bunch.

When I returned a year and half later to Soest I stayed with him and his family until I could find my own place (and that was a bureaucratic nightmare!!). Juergen by then had managed to acquire a very odd German-Canadian-British-Midlands mishmash when speaking English. Quite funny, actually, although he clearly never thought so! He'd mix in Canadian slang he'd learned from us with British slang he'd learned from you bunch. Odd.

When I returned to Canada in 1974 I was able to discern a 'Canadian accent' amongst those around me for the first couple of months. All I can remember of it was it was 'cat like' -- a slight mewing tinge to it. My accent, on the other hand, apparently was also an odd mix of Canadian-Brit-German until I adapted and 'lost' that accent, although it does tend to crop up now and then if I am around British or German for even 20 minutes!