Weird Ranks and Traditions

Teabag got me thinking of this.

I knew a guy who worked in the stores in 20 Bde as the SQMS I think who claimed his Rank was WOIII, He was from a lancer or Cavalry regiment.

Well I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troop_Sergeant_Major

Oh and erm..... why does it say I'men ligne and not on line? have we been taken over by the French, or is this just signifying I'm off to France next week



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Thanks Jim..That answers my question

During WWII the rank of WOIII wore the 'Large Crown' while WOII's wore the 'Crown in Wreath'

The WOIII rank was put into abayance in 1945 by which time there was no one left holding the rank.

In 1947 the 'Large Crown' was adapted by WOII CSM/SSM's while the 'Crown in Wreath' continued to be worn by RQMS's etc. as it is today.

jim wrote:

Teabag got me thinking of this.

I knew a guy who worked in the stores in 20 Bde as the SQMS I think who claimed his Rank was WOIII, He was from a lancer or Cavalry regiment.

Well I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troop_Sergeant_Major

While doing some research at the Public Records Ofice (now the National Archive) on my Dad's war service I discovered that the Royal Artillery also had WOIIIs as Tp SMs during WWII. They also had Lance Sjts, which was not another name for a Bombadier (another unique rank?) but was a kind of acting Sgt. To tell the difference Sjts wore a gun above the stripes, as in the Sgt rank in this forum, the L/Sjt didn't. Incidently I noticed that the rank was spelled Serjeant then and not Sergeant.

I can remember seeing Part One Orders with it still spelt with the J in the '70's.

Which regiment could give the loyal; toast sitting down? anyone. I believe the Navy do.

jim wrote:

I can remember seeing Part One Orders with it still spelt with the J in the '70's.

Which regiment could give the loyal; toast sitting down? anyone. I believe the Navy do.

I believe it is the Queen's, although how far back the tradition goes, and which Regt pre the amalgamations it was I don't know.

Re the Navy, that's probably more practical rather than a privilege. Very difficult to stand and drink when the table is going up and down 15 ft.

Another wierd one has just come to mind. Apparently in a Guards WOs & Sgts Mess, if you didn't want to speak to anyone, or anyone to speak to you you wore your hat at the meal table.

In the Sigs you weren't allowed to wear any headgear in the Mess at all.

Mike

mjm34 wrote:

jim wrote:

I can remember seeing Part One Orders with it still spelt with the J in the '70's.

Which regiment could give the loyal; toast sitting down? anyone. I believe the Navy do.

I believe it is the Queen's, although how far back the tradition goes, and which Regt pre the amalgamations it was I don't know.

Re the Navy, that's probably more practical rather than a privilege. Very difficult to stand and drink when the table is going up and down 15 ft.

Just found this on ARSSE, so it is the Queen's who in fact used to be the Queen's as well as the East Surreys.

Quote :

The 'Seated' Tradition is in honour of the Naval Service of both the Queen's Regiment (2nd Foot) and the East Surreys (31st & 70th) who were raised as Villiers Marines. Toasts were necessarily drunk seated on ships as there was little head room to stand up and or the sea state may have led to an undignified muddle as the officers struggled to stand upright.

The RA & RAOC had the rank of Lance-Serjeant, which was an appointment originally given to technicly qualified Corporals selected for promotion to Sargeant to a set limit in any one unit (by seniority) they were intitled to use the mess and wear mess dress if they wished. It was abolished in the RA & RAOC in 1946.

Only the Brigade of Guards still use it, but for all Corporals on promotion.

Upto 1920 the RE & RAOC also had 'Second Corporals' who were technicly qualified Paid Lance Corporals, Unlike a Lance-Corporal, a Bombardier held full non-commissioned rank and not an acting appointment. later to be replaced by 'Substansive' L/Cpl

* 'Technicly Qualified' meant the ranks were not open to 'General Dutymen'

Originally also until 1920, the RA had Corporals (but not Lance-Corporals) and a Bombardier was junior to a Corporal and wore a single chevron. The rank was equivalent to Second Corporal in the RE and RAOC. In 1920, Corporals were abolished in the RA and Bombardiers became the equivalent and acquired the normal two chevrons.

And I will not even go into Conductors RAOC , Staff Sargeant Majors, First Class RASC or WO1 Master Gunners RA! [Royal Coat of Arms in Wreath]

i remember when i first joined my regt [15/19H]from training1967 saturday morning was worked as part of the week,every 4th saturday was RSMs drill parade,after the usual warm up drill the RSM bellowed all sgt majors to me,i wondered wher all the S/SGTs were going,any way this was the stuff you did not learn in training you had to grab somebody to hopefully teach you.

mjm34 wrote:

Another wierd one has just come to mind. Apparently in a Guards WOs & Sgts Mess, if you didn't want to speak to anyone, or anyone to speak to you you wore your hat at the meal table.

In the Sigs you weren't allowed to wear any headgear in the Mess at all.

Mike

Oh yes, I remember that one now as well, don't know if it's true either.

jim wrote:

mjm34 wrote:

Another weird one has just come to mind. Apparently in a Guards WOs & Sgts Mess, if you didn't want to speak to anyone, or anyone to speak to you you wore your hat at the meal table.

In the Sigs you weren't allowed to wear any headgear in the Mess at all.

Mike

Oh yes, I remember that one now as well, don't know if it's true either.

A story told to me, which is quite probably apocryphal, related to an RE WOII and a Guards Sgt at breakfast:

Said Sgt arrives wearing big hat and sits down:

WOII (seated further up the table): "Pass the salt please"

Sgt:

WOII: "Pass the salt please"

Sgt:

WOII: "Excuse me Sgt, would you pass the salt please?"

Sgt:

WOII climbs up onto table, takes three smart paces forwards halting on said Sgt's breakfast plate;

WOII: "Oi, cloth-ears - pass the f***ing salt"

In the Light Infantry "Sergeant: is spelt with a "J".
In the Guards a full Corporal is designated a Lance Sergeant, and entitled to use the Sgts Mess. Full Corporals of Attached personnel such as REME,were accorded the rank of Lance Sergeant,and all its privileges,after maybe 6 months with the unit.
We were in the Naafi one day,and a Tels Tech Full Corporal was asked by the duty NCO ,a Lance Sergeant to remove his head dress.He complied, but after some advice from his barrack room lawyer mates, he put his beret back on. The L/Sgt came back and bollocked him for that. The Tech asked him to take a f***** hike.The L/Sgt was furious and charged the Corporal. Befoerthe case git to the OC, the CSM called up the L/Sgt and advised him to apologise to the Corporal,as he was senior to him.

The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards also remain seated during the loyal toast. I think that I'm correct in saying that they compound the insult by carrying on conversing throughout the toast.

A tradition they inherited from the Royal Scots Greys, a constituent regiment.

Various theories abound.

i) They were excused standing by George III who was normally too ill/pissed to stand himself.

ii) Their loyalty was not in question.

iii) They couldn't be arsed.

iv) They were Communists

You are new here aren't you?

Yes Staff.

Sarcastic: It's not Staff it's Yeoman, Didn't they have yeomen at your last unit?

Yes St.... er Yeoman

Thinks: Am I supposed to be a bloody mind reader? Nothing written on your forehead.

Pompous little prick!

Don't know about other messes but in ours the Loyal Toast was given by the most junior member. (Mister Vice).
It was common practice to get Mister Vice in the bar beforehand and "get a couple down his neck". At one dinner it fell the turn of a little psychopath we shall call Geordie. Never one to miss out on free drink Geordie got every one he could "down his neck".
(Our Loyal Toast went "Gentlemen, our Captain General, The Queen")
The Great Moment arrived, the RSM barked "Mister Vice", Geordie lurched to his feet and slurred-"Gennelmun, are Camn Jennel - Quun".
From such incidents are Regimental traditions born !

Custom within the RAOC and many other messes as well Brum, which I escaped it as I was made Substantive Sergeant backdated, and we had an Acting Sergeant who I immediately outranked much to his disgust! He triad to pull a flanker by volunteering for duty, but the RSM felt he needed the practise, and he got 6 more extras on the night, but I managed 3 extras anyway! but only did 1 of them as I was on tour in NI within a week, and they were forgot about!

What about the toast to the Sovereign, being passed over the water? A Jacobite thingy I think.

I think Jacobitism entered permanent decline after the "Forty-Five" highland rebellion and no Scottish Regiments were affiliated to it on the losing side.

Some really interesting stuff here, I never realised there were so many different traditions.

Talking about Mr Vice, I posted on the RAOC Board that my first time as Mr Vice in Wilton, I was taken down town by 2 senior hard drinking SGT's for a few wets, by the time we got back to the Mess in time for the dinner, I was pretty far gone. I proposed the loyal toast wearing a silver rose bowl on my head having been convinced by that pair that this was tradition. I don't know how many extras I got, it looked like the GSM was doing a Mexican wave. Still, he gave out so many extras that particular dinner that I only got a couple in.

Mike_2817 wrote:

Custom within the RAOC and many other messes as well Brum, which I escaped it as I was made Substantive Sergeant backdated, and we had an Acting Sergeant who I immediately outranked much to his disgust! He triad to pull a flanker by volunteering for duty, but the RSM felt he needed the practise, and he got 6 more extras on the night, but I managed 3 extras anyway! but only did 1 of them as I was on tour in NI within a week, and they were forgot about!

Yep, also the way Mr-vice was selected in R Signals WOs & Joes Messes. Like you Mike I managed to bodyswerve the "honour" by being promoted sub on the same day as another guy got acting.

Mind you I did get lumbered as Property Member

Mike

Teabag wrote:

You are new here aren't you?

Yes Staff.

Sarcastic: It's not Staff it's Yeoman, Didn't they have yeomen at your last unit?

Yes St.... er Yeoman

Thinks: Am I supposed to be a bloody mind reader? Nothing written on your forehead.

Pompous little prick!

Yep! Complicated as hell. How were you supposed to tell if it's: "Staff", "Q", "Yeoman", "Foreman" or whatever?

Mike

I always wondered how you could tell the difference between a Yeoman and a foreman anyway.

Actually, are you saying that not all SSGT's in the Signals were Yeomen or Foremen then Mike?