Sennelager places remembered

Mike_2817 wrote:

Not sure about an 'Honest John' version, The Lance Missile had a concrete lump to use as a Practice warhead up on the Benbecula Ranges!

but there was a sub-calibre device for the Charlie G that looked like an AT Round which fired a 6.5mm Training Round at a target looking like a tank on a normal range!

Also a Sub-Calibre device for the 66mm LAW

A sub-calibre device for the SLR came to us for trialling, in the 70s.
Made by Heckler & Koch it comprised a .22 barrel and breech mechanism that fitted inside a man's personal rifle and was fed from a magazine that fitted inside the normal 7.62 one.

Some said it was to be used to cut down on ammo expenditure and others that it enabled practise to be carried out on a 30 metre range, thus easing the pressure on the big ranges.

Either way, it never caught on.

Brum, it was used in indoor 30 mtr ranges, normally by Regimental Shooting Teams.

brum wrote:

Mike_2817 wrote:

Yes they did Jim from about 1974ish onwards. They were 7.62mm rounds moulded in blue plastic including the bullet, with an aluminium base, with a reduced load and made by the German firm DAG

Just found a picture on Google Search




There was also a 9mm version for SMG & Pistol

With respect Mike I think you're barking up the wrong tree there.
They're the blanks that the Bundeswehr has used for decades.
They used to be black in colour and you'd see them scattered all over the place.

With respect I am right, but I see where you are coming from........

Very similar Brum, but these had solid moulded plastic bullets.

Here is the description from WIS - Small Arms Ammunition Guide;

Short Range (reduced power) Training Round

Produced by Dynamit Nobel AG of Germany (Headstamp DAG) 7.62 NATO caliber, blue plastic, short range training round, brass case head, nickel primer, green primer sealant, ring crimp. Specifically, illustrated item is for the British L1A1 rifle and designated L14A1 for UK MoD service. From 50 round, tan cardboard box, with white label and black ink markings "50 Round, 7.62mm Training, Short Range, L14A1 For use in rifle 7.62mm L1A1"

Box I illustrated is in German and 'UEBUNG' means TRAINING. as it was the only illustration I could find at the time.

If you look at the following picture you will see that the top of the blank has a cross mark to weaken it for opening



Some more pictures of Short Range Training Round

brum wrote:

Mike_2817 wrote:

Not sure about an 'Honest John' version, The Lance Missile had a concrete lump to use as a Practice warhead up on the Benbecula Ranges!

but there was a sub-calibre device for the Charlie G that looked like an AT Round which fired a 6.5mm Training Round at a target looking like a tank on a normal range!

Also a Sub-Calibre device for the 66mm LAW

A sub-calibre device for the SLR came to us for trialling, in the 70s.
Made by Heckler & Koch it comprised a .22 barrel and breech mechanism that fitted inside a man's personal rifle and was fed from a magazine that fitted inside the normal 7.62 one.

Some said it was to be used to cut down on ammo expenditure and others that it enabled practise to be carried out on a 30 metre range, thus easing the pressure on the big ranges.

Either way, it never caught on.

There was also a version for the 5.56mm L85A1 Rifle & L89A! Cadet Rifle (SA80) introduced in 1988 and withdrawn when the L85A1 underwent conversion to L85A2 as it would not work with the newer version. The Cadets got reworked L85's converted into single shot as the L89A2 and the .22" Sub-Calibre barrales (which had its own breach as well) were approved for use again for them.

My apologies Mike, I stand corrected.
Now I've seen the round taken apart I can see that they are the rounds we used in the CQBR in "Tintown". In your first picture they looked quite different.

In answer to Jim's original question though, I still maintain that there was not a low-power round in use in NI. Not in the 70s anyway.
We had enough of a crisis of confidence going with the Browning 9mm as it was!

getting back on thread, somebody must remember geordies bar,more or less straight over from the main gate,had some grand nights in there.

Having re-read Jim's post, no the Short Range Rounds were only ever used in Training, and firing live rounds in NI was discouraged other than in the last resort. I think Jim mixed up the two.

The use of the 1.5" (37mm) Anti-Riot Batten Round was introduced to reduce the lose of life like that experienced during 'Bloody Sunday'

There are operational Short Range Rounds in many calibres for use in Anti Riot situations these days as well as Pistol Calibres for use on Aircraft by 'Air Marshals' so not to pierce the outer pressurised skin of a plane!

The Walther PPK was issued in both 7.65mm (32" ACP) [L47A1] and .22" Rimfire [L66A1] as a short range personal defence weapon to the UDR & Army when in plain cloths. As the L9A1 Browning Hi-Power was both Bulky and more powerful (not according to some!)

The PPK's were replaced by the L102A1 Pistol, Automatic 9mm (Walther P5 Compact)

dandc wrote:

getting back on thread, somebody must remember geordies bar,more or less straight over from the main gate,had some grand nights in there.

I do indeed, but then again I lived just off the strip on Lahrcamp Str opposite the church! and my wife work nights as a nurse in the MRS so met up with the lads on a few occasions

brum wrote:

We had enough of a crisis of confidence going with the Browning 9mm as it was!

One of the shoot outs our lads (and SAS) had was with some loyalists near Saintfield. We used the 9mm smg, some rounds of which ended up in some loyalist blokes backside. There were no fatalities.

Mike_2817 wrote:

dandc wrote:

getting back on thread, somebody must remember geordies bar,more or less straight over from the main gate,had some grand nights in there.

I do indeed, but then again I lived just off the strip on Lahrcamp Str opposite the church! and my wife work nights as a nurse in the MRS so met up with the lads on a few occasions

I lived in Lahrcamp Str back in 1982, when posted to RSDG LAD. Geordies bar, Jocks Pub and several others all along the Strip. All gone now by all accounts.

I lived in Loeseke Str (the posh end) in '71. Bars at the time were Geordies, Zum Tower, Heidekotten and the one in my cellar - "Macs Place".

Lived in Lahrkampstr is the late 70's on my second posting to the Field Ambulance/MRS. Remember the excellent schnellie just down the road, just past the Church. First time there was in the early 70's as a singly. Sennelager was and still is my fav posting.

Mike_2817 wrote:

The Walther PPK was issued in both 7.65mm (32" ACP) [L47A1] and .22" Rimfire [L66A1] as a short range personal defence weapon to the UDR & Army when in plain cloths. As the L9A1 Browning Hi-Power was both Bulky and more powerful (not according to some!)

The PPK's were replaced by the L102A1 Pistol, Automatic 9mm (Walther P5 Compact)

I handled a RUC PPK in Palace Bks when we were with a prisoner in PHC 1.
Beautifully made weapon.

I liked the Browning 9mm.
Word got round our regt that it was no good ,as one of our blokes had shot at somebody one night and Paddy just kept on running.
The prat could've missed. of course.
Thus was born another Urban Myth !

I liked the RUC Ruger SP101 357 Magnum and fired it several times, now that was a man stopper! Or in my case a paper target hole puncher at NITIT and on the Maze Range down in the 'hollow' where it punched holes in empty ammo cases as well!!

Urban Myth was that a wet blanket at 25 Metres would stop a 9mm bullet fired from a Browning, which was true if it was hung on a washing line because the blanket moved to absorb the impact, drape same blanket on a target and it went though both with ease!

My personal weapon was a 9mm Browning and my last one was a Inglis built Mk1* version (same as the L9A1) dated 1956, which was almost as old as I was LoL but in better condition than some of the others I handled over the years.

dandc wrote:

getting back on thread, somebody must remember geordies bar,more or less straight over from the main gate,had some grand nights in there.

Indeed yes, not the most salubrious of bars but a well deserved reputation, was there a Jocks bar as well? Another place on the strip with a certain je ne sais quoi was the talk of the town, then further up the road there was that bar by the married quarters where the pads went at the weekend. Then in the opposite direction down the strip you could go to the 'Hollywood' in Schloss Neuhaus. Great times.

I seem to remember that there was a re-hab place there? when I hurt my back in 69 ish I am sure thats where I went, any info? Ian.

Ian, there was an Army School of Physical Training (BAOR) in Normandy Barracks, perhaps that was where you did your Rehab. Jocks Bar was run by a guy called Jock Williamson, an Ex Bdr from 24 Msl Regt (next door to the Moulin Rouge). Zum Tower was converted in to a Church.

Hi Ian, I think you wouild have gone to the rehab unit that became the MRS which was co-located with 30 Fd Amb. The barracks eventually became Talbot Bks but the taxi drivers still only knew it as MRS. My records show that the rehab unit was there in the MRS.

[quote="Shelldrake"]
Jocks Bar was run by a guy called Jock Williamson, an Ex Bdr from 24 Msl Regt (next door to the Moulin Rouge).

Would he be after "my time" ? (I left in '64).

Be about '71/72, Brum. Zum Tower was run by Ozzie Austin, 76 Bty, around the same time.

Shelldrake wrote:

Be about '71/72, Brum. Zum Tower was run by Ozzie Austin, 76 Bty, around the same time.

I was back in 2nd by then.

Off down the Italian (well, Turkish, really !) tonight.
They sell Efes so I'll get a few down my neck and imagine I'm toasing my toes in Girne.

Never had that brew..but the write up on it is very impressive.