27 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group

Flicking through the TV channels last night a documentary by the Canadian National Film Board circa 1950+ caught my attention. It was when 27 Cdn Inf Bde was a brigade, over 6,000 on parade at Waterloo Square, Hannover. It featured all arms on exercise, there were 25 pounders being drawn by small ACV similar to a Bren Gun Carrier, mortar platoons, a full field attack on an 'enemy' position, was great to see a platoon of the Winnipeg Rifles in a frontal attack, brens being fired at the run, a great drive past of several squadrons of Centurions .. a well put together 15 minutes of nostalgia ... anyone else catch it on channel 112.

Len (Ciphers)

No darn it. I'll have to send you my phone number Ciphers, then when you spot something good, I'll be in the know.

I wonder if Bob Ritter saw it? He might have been on parade wIth the RHLI

The RHLI were on parade ... the commentator even mentioned it was the first time the German civvies had seen kilted soldiers.
The salute was taken by the Commander of 11 Armd Div.
I have joined the Canadian National Film Board and have spent some time trolling their archives trying to find the documentary. Sometimes they repeat them, if so I will record them.

Len (Ciphers)

ciphers wrote:

It featured all arms on exercise, there were 25 pounders being drawn by small ACV similar to a Bren Gun Carrier.

Len (Ciphers)

It would have been one of these, Len. The Morris C8 Quad and Limber.

No Shelldrake, they were open topped very similar to Bren Gun Carriers but appeared a little larger.


Len (Ciphers)

27(CIB) BAOR
re: 27th Bde Ex on Waterloo Square, Hannover, West Germany ca April 1952
    Ciphers, I'm sorry that I missed the documentary by the NFB covering that event.  If you manage to find it  please advise me.
    JPW, No, I was not on that Bde parade/exercise on Waterloo Square as I was posted to the RHLI in Hannover in Jun 1952.
    Shelldrake, another good picture from the past showing the gun tractor, limber, and 25 pdr  on the river crossing. I remember that equipment well;  when I transferred to 21 Fd  Artillery Regiment RCA(M),  I recall the gun tractors which were somewhat similar in appearance to the quad shown in your picture but the limber and 25pdr were the same. A few years later the Regiment replaced the pdr's with American 105mm howitzers towed by 2 and 1/2  ton, six wheel drive gun tractors referred to as deuce and a half's.  Unfortunately, I have turned over all of my artillery pictures to my son who is putting together a web page on the history of the regiment.
      ritter

ciphers wrote:

..........., they were open topped very similar to Bren Gun Carriers but appeared a little larger.

Len (Ciphers)

I've found refs, that some Canadian Kangaroos  ( APC conversion of RAM  AFV, which, itself  was based on US M3 ) were further modified & used as AT gun tractors, ammo supply vehicles etc.

For identification, RAM chassis has 3 pairs of track wheels each side, a track laying wheel at front & single wheel to rear. The APC version had the turret removed & what seems to be an armoured top. No pics of the gun tractor unfortunately but there''s a note which says it was in service, in many roles, well after WW2.  

Seems to fit the bill ???????

ciphers wrote:

........... they were open topped very similar to Bren Gun Carriers but appeared a little larger.

Len (Ciphers)

Second thoughts, which I should have had before.........
Thinking of Canadian RAM conversions etc, the Sexton evolved from that ilk too..... I think !   Sexton without the built- in 25 pdr., with seating for gun crew, ammunition racks etc.,  rectangular outline & open top similar to a grown up Bren Carrier, could have been an ideal
gun tractor.

 And weren't there OP  or GPO Sextons which were similarly gunless  and ready made for the towing task ?

ritter wrote:

27(CIB) BAOR

    Shelldrake, another good picture from the past showing the gun tractor, limber, and 25 pdr  on the river crossing. I remember that equipment well;  when I transferred to 21 Fd  Artillery Regiment RCA(M),  I recall the gun tractors which were somewhat similar in appearance to the quad shown in your picture but the limber and 25pdr were the same. A few years later the Regiment replaced the pdr's with American 105mm howitzers towed by 2 and 1/2  ton, six wheel drive gun tractors referred to as deuce and a half's.  Unfortunately, I have turned over all of my artillery pictures to my son who is putting together a web page on the history of the regiment.
      ritter

Bob, RA Missile Regiments were also issued with the Deuce and a half, the Long Body version. They were used for transporting the HJ Warhead and Motor and were known as The Heating and Tie Down Unit.

'ang about, that was a 5 tonner when I was in a Msl Regt.
The "Deuce & a half" were those trucks we used as admin runabouts at BATUS.

[quote=
"Thinking of Canadian RAM conversions etc, the Sexton evolved from that ilk too..... I think !   Sexton without the built- in 25 pdr., with seating for gun crew, ammunition racks etc.,  rectangular outline & open top similar to a grown up Bren Carrier, could have been an ideal
gun tractor.

 And weren't there OP  or GPO Sextons which were similarly gunless  and ready made for the towing task ?[/quote]
Good thinking cartav !
Looking at the picture of a Sexton, in Ian Hogg's book, I began to wonder what was done with all those excellent Ram tanks, once the Yanks decreed that everyone would be equipped with Sherman.

More like this Universal Carrier

Len (Ciphers)

ciphers wrote:

More like this Universal Carrier

Len (Ciphers)

That looks like Lt Grubers' little tank in 'Allo 'Allo, currently being repeated ad nauseum on BBC 2! 

'Clubs" ...

Len (Ciphers)

The NFB found the title, reproduced below is information should anyone wish to order it..

Len (Ciphers)


Hi Len,


Thanks for your email.

Good news, the research departement worked really hard and they eventually found the movie you were looking for. the title is: Eye Witness No. 42

The film is available on DVD at $11.00 for home viewing, plus shipping and handling ($4.00 + $0.75 per additional item) and applicable taxes. Shipping usually takes about two weeks after the order date. Express shipping and handling, if needed, costs $13.00 + $1.25 per additional item.

To order :

Online:
To purchase NFB titles online, visit www.nfb.ca/store.

By phone:
From anywhere in Canada, just call toll-free at 1-800-267-7710 or (514) 283-9000 if you live in the Montreal area, Monday to Friday, 9 am to 7 pm (ET); agents will gladly take your order and answer any questions.

By fax:
(514) 283-7564

By mail:
National Film Board of Canada
Sales and Customer Service, D-10
P.O. Box 6100, Station Centre-Ville
Montreal QC H3C 3H5

Here is description of content of the NFB Film Canadian 27 Inf Bde Group

Len (Ciphers)

West German soil resounds again to the tread of marching feet and the rumble of armored vehicles--but this time for the preservation of peace. The film presents an eye-witness account of training activities of the Royal Canadian 27th Infantry Brigade stationed at Hanover--Canada's forceful contribution to NATO ground forces for the defense of Western Europe. A sight-seeing tour of German countryside, an intense mock ground attack, and a military parade on Hanover's public square are the main features. Everywhere in the background is the mute eloquence of the last defeated aggression.

Details
ID NO.
153B0152072
Duration:
11 min 0 s
Producer:
David Bairstow
Credits
Photo Gallery

[quote="ciphers"]


More like this Universal Carrier

Len (Ciphers)


Agreed that's the Carden Loyd Universal Carrier ( or Bren Gun Carrier as it was more widely known ) but I think it was a bit lightweight for towing a 25 pdr Len......... Lightweight in AFV terms that is, for the Carrier itself tipped the scales empty at 4.25 tons. Only 12 ft long with a Ford V8 truck engine of 85 bhp & a variety of other similar power units, whilst the RAM chassis was better served with an engine of 400 bhp. I read that, apart from being made in UK, 29,000 were turned out in Canada up to 1945, so I suppose it's possible some might have been used to lug a 25 pdr about if the going wasn't too rough. I bet there's something on Google or Wiki to expand our knowledge.

Began to wonder why an infantry outfit would be using 25 pounders, that would be field artillery job, then found this photo of Universal carrier towing a 6 pounder which would be probable for an anti tank section. Only problem is in the film there were several guns being towed. Come on you cheap buggers dib up and buy the DVD.

Len (Ciphers)

brum wrote:

'ang about, that was a 5 tonner when I was in a Msl Regt.
The "Deuce & a half" were those trucks we used as admin runabouts at BATUS.

Going back to smartarse mode again, & relying on hard copy and not personal experience, Shelldrake's pic seems to be of an M36 truck. noted as being a LWB version of the M35. There was a also the Mack 6 x 6 which was similar, bigger, rated at 7.5 ton capacity.
and used as a heavy arty. tractor.

The "Deuce & a Half" was a term used by the US in a similar manner to the Brit "3-tonner* and related to the load capacity, not the wheel arrangement. The 6 x 6 GMC, also known as the "Jimmy", was developed from a standard requirement laid down in 1939. Unlike the Brits who had a variety of 3-tonners from several companies, the US had no concerns about potential enemy action which could disrupt production if it were centered on a single factory. Must have simplified spares problems too.
i

[quote="cartav.[/quote]

There was a also the Mack 6 x 6 which was similar, bigger, rated at 7.5 ton capacity and used as a heavy arty. tractor.

When we converted to missile we had two batteries equipped with 8in howitzer. The guns were towed with the Mack. I remember a REME fitter gleefully showing me the engine of one where the conrod had blown straight out of the side of the engine.

The "Deuce & a Half" was a term used by the US in a similar manner to the Brit  "3-tonner* and related to the load capacity, not the wheel arrangement.  The 6 x 6 GMC, also known as the "Jimmy", was developed from a standard requirement laid down in 1939.        

I had a great time driving around in a "Deuce & a haf" in Canada, great little truck.

brum wrote:

 

I had a great time driving around in a "Deuce & a haf" in Canada, great little truck.

I 've always thought the US trucks looked much more robust than ours.
And it's surprisng that the Deuce & a Half was rated at half a ton less capacity than similarly sized things like the QL.

brum wrote:

.        

I had a great time driving around in a "Deuce & a haf" in Canada, great little truck.

Bet you did, bloody OPs!!    

Shelldrake wrote:

       
Bet you did, bloody OPs!!     

Me sir ! Me sir ! I did OPs. Best number going in the summer months. Just me, another sig & a driver out in the sticks, 2 miles or more from BHQ with a ten man pack of compo & a petrol cooker. Comms by 19 set back to the LAACC, a convenient device which, strangely, would never work in clear when a rocket was on its way down from above, and a B44 on the early warning net. Bet not many outside Lt. Ack Ack have come across one of them !

27(CIB)BAOR
attention: Ciphers
Thanks very much, Len, for your detailed information about  purchasing  the NFB title ,"Eye Witness No.42"  which I am ordering.
 Bob