Hannover, London - Ediburgh Barracks

Hi all,

I now think the transit camp where I was in Feb 1951 was the same barracks that the Canadians 27th Infantry, moved into in Dec 1951.

All I can remember it was fairly close to the city centre, and opposite was a large complex which could have been a monestry or a convent?

Does anyone know the street name?

Regards
Tony

Hi again,

I am still trying to locate the transit camp I was in for about 1 week in February 1951.

While searching the net, found an account of a Canadian's life in the army, he was in the 27th Infantry, and he says the camp, which he called Chatham Barracks; was about 3 miles from downtown Hannover, and close to an autobahn.
He mentions going into the city and Georgstrasse; and this appears to be the area where I remember plenty of luxury shops whose displays were equal to those in London at that time; something we were surprised at.

Looking at google maps there is a barracks in the correct position, now called Emmich-Cambrai Kaserne; and beside a tram line into town. It is almost due north of the city centre.

Can anyone confirm this is Chatham Barracks?
It is quite a large complex, so I am wondering if the RE transit section was a small part, perhaps only one barrack block, and this has been my problem?

Do any other RE's remember being posted from U.K. to a transit camp and not direct to a unit in BAOR?

It is a long time ago, so there are less who remember being there; or much about it.

Regards
Tony

My neighbour, who is 90yrs old and served with the RE's in Hanover after the war circa 1948-49, always talks about the camp at Langenhagen, which might fit your description.

Chatham Barracks was located just the other side of the eastern boundary fence of Emmich Cambrai Kaserne, it housed 24 Tpt & Mov Regt RCT, a MCG Unit RE (German civilian labour commanded by a Maj RE), and the Area Claims Office (North) - a Brit civil service claims commision office, HQ in Rheindahlen. I believe it has since been demolished.

The camp on the other side of the main road with trams was Langenhagen Barracks, long since flattenened and built over. I was with 63 Station Workshop REME in Langenhagen Barracks 1988 - 91, other units were 1 PC Regt RE, SSO Hannover and Area works Office PSA. I believe in the distant past the transit camp was located there in what became the PSA accommodation.

Bob

Hi Tony,
Saw your post about the former German Army Transit camp at Hannover, W. Germany. I served there in 1952 with the Royal Hamiltion Light Infantry, 1st Cdn Rifle Bn, 27th Cdn Inf Bde, BAOR. I was deployed as a platoon Cpmmander. As I remember there were five Cdn Rifle Regiments in the Bn ; we were in Edinburgh Barracks. The camp was on or very near a main thoroughfare to the city centre called Podbielski Strasse. There was streetcar service on the street. I took a number of photographs of the camp which I still have. In 1976 my wife and I tried to find the camp while we were touring Germany. The entire camp was gone and replaced by housing.

" machts gut"
Bob Ritter

Bob

Welcome and thank you for your info, clearly based on personal experience, and therefore immensely valuable

Earlier research established that the three Infantry Battalions which formed from volunteers from the Militia Regiments reformed after Word War 2 (the Regular Battalions being committed to Korea).

You mentioned there were five Battalions represented in the Rifle Battalion. Clearly the Rileys was one, I assume the Queens Own Rifles of Canada, The Regina Rifles and Winnipeg Rifles also contributed but who was the fifth?

Secondly there has been considerable debate as to where the Armoured Squadron of the Royal Canadian Dragoons was based in 1952. Some sources state Langenhagen Barracks close to the Hannover Airport, others state they were located in Hohne. Can you remember?

Hello JPW,
Thank you for your response to my post and for your welcome to this site. I am slowly getting acquainted with the protocols but still have more to learn.
When the 27CIB was mobilized ca 1951 in Canada it was referred to as the "Panda Brigade "and its mission was referred to as "Operation Panda" more accurately known as the NATO mission. I still have no idea about the use of the acronym Panda.
The infantry component was comprised of the 1st Canadian Rifle Battalion, the Highland Battalion and the Infantry Battalion. All of the recruits were drawn from existing reserve units in Canada. The Ist Canadian Infantry Battalion was comprised of the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry, The Queen's Own Rifles from Toronto, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles, The Regina Rifles, and the Victoria Rifles of Canada from Montreal,( no connection to Victoria B. C.)
Each of these regiments provided one company each to the Bn.
If my memory still serves me, the Highland Bn was comprised of the Black Watch, Royal Highland Regiment of Canada; North Nova Scotia Highlanders from Amherst NS, 48th Highlanders from Toronto, the Seaforth Highlanders from Vancouver, and the Canadian Scottish Regiment from Victoria, BC. My Bn was housed in Edinburgh Barracks in Hannover. We did our infantry training in the field at Putlos on the Baltic Sea as well as in an area around Detmold in the Teutoburger Wald.
I am not able to accurately place with certainty the Royal Canadian Dragoons, RCD's who were a Regular Force Regiment with one Squadron based, I think, in Chatham Barracks at Langenhagen.
When I returned to Canada I joined the 21st Anti Tank Regiment(M) which subsequently became 21Fd. Artillery Regt (M) retiring as LCol in 1970 when the regiment was placed in Supplementary Reserve.
Thanks for your response to my post.
Bob

Bob

Many thanks for the information on the Royal Canadian Dragoons

You also enhanced my military knowledge with the mention of the Victoria Rifles, a Regiment I had not heard of before

May I ask one more cheeky question. As the author of the original piece on the Canadian Infantry Brigade, to be found off the Home Page, I recgnise that it needs serious updating to include the vast amount of additional information that Steve and I have collected particular on the deployment and responsibilities of the CAOF in 1945/6. It would be very useful if you could add the units which contributed to the 1952 27 CIB Canadian Infantry Battalion, presumably at least one Rifle Company must have been raised in both Alberta and New Brunswick, neither of whom are mentioned in your response to my initial query, and was there a francophone Company from Quebec Province?

Hello JPW,
I do not view the question which you raised as being cheeky. You obviously have a very good knowledge of our Canadian geography. The answer to your observation lies in the composition of the 3rd infantry Bn in the 27th Inf. Bde. In my last message I gave you the composition of the 1st Cdn Rifle Bn and the 1st Cdn Highland Bn. Thi is the structure of the 1st Cdn Infantry Bn:
The Hastings and Prince Edward Regt - A company(eastern Ontario)
Les Fusiliers Mont Royal-B company (francophone)Montreal
The Algonquin Regt -Ccompany (francophone & !st nations Northern ON
The Loyal Edmonton Regit- D Company (Alberta)
The Carleton and York Regt. Support Company ( New Brunswick)

Hope this addresses the issues which you raised.
Don't hesitate to get back to me
Regards,
Bob

Bob

Many thanks for your reply which I will add to my data bank

By sheer coincidence yesterday I found I was able to access the Defence Department Report held in the Government Archives Ottawa, written in Summer 1952 recording the formation and initial deployment of 27CIB. It is a fascinating document, not only does it describe the origins of the three Infantry Battalions but also the Militia units contributing to the other components of the Brigade including the ten Armoured Corps sub units which were never deployed

Two things struck me

The city of Calgary appeared to make no contribution. I know there were Militia units based there and far smaller communities elsewhere in Canada sent contingents

Secondly, and this will amuse Steve, the document clearly shows the RCD Squadron and the Artillery Regiment initially deployed to the " BAOR Royal Armoured Corps Centre in Hohne" yet you, other documents and others remember/record them as being in Hannover. Yet another example of official records contradicting themselves.

Incidentally my knowledge of the Canadian Army stems in part from my tour of duty in Munster in the late 60s. Like many other young single British officers I used to enjoy the generous hospitality of the Canadian Officers Club in Soest at their Sunday Evening Supper and Film Events. These were extremely popular with the Brits and there was strong anecdotal evidence that at the quarterly Mess Meetings the subject of the Brit invasion was regularly raised. Critism was silenced by the Treasurer with words to the effect "Belt up, the excess theey pay subsidises the rest of the weeks entertainment". The closure of the Club with the move to Lahr left a significant gap in the social arrangements of many

Hello JW,
Thanks again for your acute observations on the flawed composition of the frequently maligned 27th CIB a.k.a. "The Panda Brigade". I'm sure that has been turned into something more obscene.LOL In regard to the missing units from Calgary, I'm sure that this would have been a political decision outside of The Ministry of National Defence at that time. There has always been a great rivalry between the cities of Edmonton and Calgary. Edmonton refers to itself as the" City of Champions" and any military news out of Alberta is always skewed in favour of the PPCLI.
To balance the equation further about the merits of the 27th CIB, there was always considerable criticism and there were many detractors about the manner in which the brigade was assembled as well as the recruitment practices of the volunteers. It was felt that there were" dummed down" standards for these people and it was regarded by many as a backdoor entry to the regular force. What many forgot was the fact that the army had three years to unload the misfits before their re-engagements were processed.
To be honest i might have been classed as a backdoor entrant myself. When I was in my 2nd year of university(1949-50) I applied for entry to the COTC ( Canadian Officers Training Corps). now ROTC. My reasons were mostly financial and I was not not motivated by any kind of patriotism. LOL I passed the physical and intelligence tests & spent two years as an officer cadet with the University of Western Ontario contingent of the COTC. When I graduated I also received my commission as a 2/Lt in the RCIC. I then transferred to the University of Toronto for graduate work as well as to the COTC contingent there. It was an opportune move as the army was inaugurating a plan to send 74 selected lieutenants from the universities across Canada to (you guessed it) the Panda Brigade. I considered myself very lucky indeed to be selected. I was posted to the RHLI Regiment in Hannover in the Spring of 1952 and deployed as a platoon comd. a young snot nosed 2/Lt who didn't know squat. I learned fast!!
I have rambled on too long; thanks for listening
Bob

Bob

Thanks for your latest contribution

Will PM you privately for help in unravelling a Canadian Gunner problem

Regarding your comments on the Calgary/Edmonton quarrel I would have to support Calgary on the basis that the Calgary based Lord Strathcona's Horse introduced me to the perils of Moose Milk during one hot summer in 1980 with the UN in Cyprusi

Lord Strathcona's Horse appeared at the Abbotsford (BC) Agrifair this past week end.
They put on a great show of horsemanship and precision formation at the halt and at the gallop.

Len (Ciphers)

JPW wrote:

Bob

Many thanks for the information on the Royal Canadian Dragoons

You also enhanced my military knowledge with the mention of the Victoria Rifles, a Regiment I had not heard of before

May I ask one more cheeky question. As the author of the original piece on the Canadian Infantry Brigade, to be found off the Home Page, I recgnise that it needs serious updating to include the vast amount of additional information that Steve and I have collected particular on the deployment and responsibilities of the CAOF in 1945/6. It would be very useful if you could add the units which contributed to the 1952 27 CIB Canadian Infantry Battalion, presumably at least one Rifle Company must have been raised in both Alberta and New Brunswick, neither of whom are mentioned in your response to my initial query, and was there a francophone Company from Quebec Province?

Go to "Canada" subject, then "27 Canadian Infantry Brigade" thread dated December 8, 2009 for more information.

Hello JW,
Thank you for your acknowledgement of my epistle. I will look forward to hearing about your orgy with "moose milk" LOL and I will do my best to deal with your RCA gunner problem.
Bob
ritterrobert7@gmail.com

Hello recce83,
Thanks for the heads up on the threads which you provided on the names of the barracks at the base in Hannover. When I was based there with the RHLI in 1952, B Company was billeted in Edinburgh barracks along with some of the other companies with 1st Cdn Rifle Bn I think London barracks were also at Hannover which was the HQ for the 27CIB.
Thanks
Bob Ritter

recce
thanks for the reminder that there is a wealth of information buried in the archives of this site

bob
in the early days of this site someone with the technical skills took the time and trouble to overlay the google earth map of germany with all the then known sites of baor barracks/raf(g) stations i still have the access perhaps some one with greater computer skills than me will restore a link to this site so that others can enjoy

regarding the hannover barracks the majority were just to the south of the hannover flughafen autobahn interchange on what is now shown the l190 route into central hannover, complete with tram tracks. the remnants of chatham barracks can still be seen ona high definition version of google earth though the military complex on the otherside of the road has been completely built over. part of the nearby volkswagen complex was definitely used by reme units in the early 1950s probably the rceme workshop and possibley the rcoac stores unit were there too

bobg our resident expert on hannover may be able to add more when he next drops in

JPW

During my time in Hannover 1988 - 91 the barracks occupied by us were Chatham and Langehagen as have been correctly identified and located. The other two locations used by us were BMH, located SE of the city centre close to Bundesstrasse 3, and Stocken Bks a large 4/5 storey high warehouse used by the Ord Coy as their working site, located north of the city near the Autobahn and on the rail network, their pers were accommodated in Langenhagen Bks. The other Bks between Chatham and the main road with trams was Emrich Cambrai Kaserne a Budeswehr officers training school, which was probably London/Edinburgh bks and used us in the early days. The only other barracks that I am aware of which have not been mentioned were located at the airport and occupied by the Luftwaffe - they were of a war time construction and probably built for the Luftwaffe, we may have used them prior to the formation of the post war German Forces.

Happy hunting

Bob

Just done a check on Google Earth and Chatham Bks are still identifiable. In the SE corner of the Bks complex is a building with damaged/repaired roof and a concreted over celler area at its southern end, this war damaged building and the one to its south housed 24 Tpt and Mov Regt, the other two buildings to the east housed the RE Civilian Works Group in the larger and Claims Commision (North) in the smaller. The MT park and POL point are also clearly identifiable. This area was fenced off from the Bundeswehr Bks with its own entrance from the main road - Kugelfangtritt.

Bob

There is another group of barracks located to the east of Emmich Cambrai Kaserne/Chatham Bks and just south of the Hannover Bothfeld exit from the A2 Autobahn - Prinz Albrecht Kaserne, Scharnhorst Kaserne and Freiherr-von-Fritsch Kaserne. They were all occupied by the Bundeswehr until the early 90s. They are close together with access from Langenforther Strasse running south from the Autobahn. These may have been used by the Canadians prior to the reformation of the German forces in 1956. Further info is available by Googling any of them - a lot of it in German, and the Relikte web site which is all in German. this may help you locate them.[a]http://wikimapia.org/7548109/de/ehemalige-Prinz-Albrecht-Kaserne-FmBtl-1[/a]
Scroll the map north to find the other 2 Bks.

The Bks at the airport were first used by the Bundesgrenzschutzes and then by various German Air Defence units until the early 90s, the last being a Gepard equiped unit, they were then swallowed up in the continuing airport expansion.

Emmich Cambrai Kaserne is now, after a major refurbishment, the training centre for the German Military Police who relocated to Hannover from Sonthofen in 2009. The officer training has been relocated elsewhere as part of the Bundeswehr restructuring.

Bob

Bob

Thank you, knew you would come up trumps!!

The additional barracks indicates that virtually the entire 27 CIB could have been located in the Hannover area.

Hello all,
A review of some of the posts to this forum seems to indicate that there is still some lingering interest in the earliest deployment of Canadian reserve units within the BAOR (NATO mission). My service was in 1952 with the 27th Canadian Infantry Brigade a.k.a. the "Panda Bde" which was deployed for the most part at Hannover as early as late Dec 1951. I will not explain how I was posted to the 27CIB as I covered that in a previous post to this forum. While everything that I am able to recall took place almost 60 years ago and while I am now in my 83rd year and losing it a bit, I will honestly try to recount my personal military experiences while attached to the BAOR. My draft was ordered to report to Quebec City ca early June 1952 where we were scheduled to depart Canada on the Cunard White Star liner RMS Scythia. As a point of interest, the Scythia had been seconded as a troop ship to carry Canadian soldiers to England in WW2. Our ship left Wolfe's Cove near Quebec City on 6 Jun 1952 on a cruise which we expected would be an idyllic crossing of the Atlantic. Not so! Look for my next post about our collision in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Belated welcome Bob R
Have some detail on your Royal Canadian Engineers
Nov 51 – 58 Independent Field Squadron RCE arrived Hameln shared barracks with 26 Field Engineer Regiment returned to Canada replaced by 2 Field Squadron RCE arrived 1953 then moved to Fort Victoria Werl
Best regards
Steve

Bob

Look forward to your story of crossing the Atlantic I think it will make the horror stories of the overnight crossing from Harwich to the Hook in the oversized bath tub called SS Vienna pale in to insignificance

Hello Steve,
Nice to hear from you and thank you for your welcome to the BAOR site.
I will add the information which you provided on the deployment of the 58th Independent Fd Squadron RCE to my research of Cdn units in the Hannover area. I note that you served in Hameln; I spent a week end there on a non military mission in the summer of 52 which I will tell you about sometime.
Regards
Bob